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Seperate Dates : Swingers Discussion 362911011
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Anytime, Bill. No charge! :-)

Jim

South Riding VA
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I don't want to go on about statistics and sampling, but I have to add one more thing and then I'm not going to say any more about statistics. No matter how large a group you sample from, there is NEVER any individual in the group that is exactly what the group average is. What averages and standard deviations do is give you a measure of central tendency and a way of quantifying what percentage of the individuals in that group will fall within a specified amount of the statistical average. There is absolutely no way to predict how any one individual selected at random from the sample would measure up compared to average. Statistics apply to a GROUP, not to an INDIVIDUAL.

South Riding VA
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I agree if you could get a large enough sample group to answer honestly you could come up with averages and trends, however I tend to doubt that anyone in the sample would exactly match the results. People are just too individual. Example, I've seen a few studies on what the average hippy is. Doesn't match me or anyone I ever knew. Some aspects are similar, but no match. We have a very diverse group of individuals here with only one thing in common with all, we all like sex. Smiles Mike

Bedford PA
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Actually, Mike, scientific study of humans is abundant - just not of swingers. Humans are indeed incredibly variable, but all you need to do is get a large enough sample size and you can very accurately describe them as a group - averages, extremes, percentages in various categories. No problem.

The problem is getting funding to conduct a study of swingers. Can you imagine the flak some foundation or government agency would catch if they funded such a study of swingers? Jerry Falwell would go berserk!

Also, because of the discretion issue, swingers are not likely to just step forward to volunteer to be included in such a study, and even if they did it would invalidate the study because it's not a random selection of swingers, but a self-selected group.

And even if somehow it were possible to get a very large sample (say, 50,000) swingers selected at random from the millions of swingers in this country alone, just how honestly would people answer the questions of a researcher?

So you see why there is so little factual data about swingers. It sure would make a fun dissertation for some doctoral student though, wouldn't it? Visit swing clubs all over the country and interview swingers galore! Might make some interesting friends in the process!

There are some things that are extremely difficult to get the truth about. How would we get accurate information, for example, on the proportion of the population who cheats on their spouses? By interviewing them? I hardly think so! Who would admit it? Same thing with trying to get information on the proportion who cheat on their income taxes, or who use illegal drugs. You can't simply interview people and expect an honest answer.

In grad school I took a statitstics course on "sampling techniques." The professor one day came in chuckling over the latest copy of the Journal of Statistics, or some such journal. I probably have the name wrong. Anyway, he read to us an article titled "How to Get The Answer Without Being Sure You Asked the Question." LOL

You sit people down at desks in a room, just like in school. On each desk is a randomly shuffled deck of cards, consisting of 3 types. One third of the cards in the deck have a red circle on them. One third have a green circle. One third have a yellow circle. Sounds like traffic lights! LOL

Everyone gets a survey questionnaire. No names or identifying features are put on the answer sheet. You draw a card from your deck before answering each question. If you get a red circle, you automatically answer no, whether or not that is the truth. If you get a green circle, you automatically answer yes, whether or not that is the truth. If you get a yellow circle, you answer truthfully.

When you turn in your answer sheet, there is no way anyone can tell if you answered a question truthfully or because the color of the circle you got determined your answer. But you can get the information you're after by analysis of the difference between the percentage of Yes and No answers you get and a 50:50 split, which is what you would get if answers were entirely due to drawing a red or green card.

Complicated, but possible. Now all we need is to identify a gazillion swingers, select 50,000 of them at random from that group, and get them all to sit down and take a survey on swingers and swinger behaviors in just such a methodology.

Fat chance! LOL

Jim

South Riding VA
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Jim, One of the great things about the lifestyle is that it opens the mind and frees the spirit. It's because of the freespiritedness that swingers defy scientific catorgorization. Believe me, as a faithfull follower of logic and reason, I've tried. I believe the lack of scientific facts about swinging is due to the fact we are dealing with humans, each with their own individuality, each with their own set of "facts" that they have developed through their own minds opening and their own freeing of spirit. As a scientist, your whole career is based on logic, reason, and drawing conclusions that are consistant. I'm sure you've found that humans are anything but logical, reasonable, and consistant. My wife said to me awhile back, "Quit trying to figure it all out , just relax and enjoy the ride!" I found that statement to be quite logical, lol. Mike

Bedford PA
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LOL!

South Riding VA
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You sure are sexy when you talk like that va :D

M-she

Hattiesburg MS
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ColleenRoy, you are absolutely correct that this thread is full of opinions, but short on FACTS. That is by no means unique to this thread, though.

Swinger forums such as this one exist precisely because there is such a critical shortage of scientific data about swinging issues. In fact, if you are a regular reader of the Forum threads, you will see that there are even some people who spout their opinions as gospel and then proceed to ridicule those who say "wait a minute, there are no facts to support that." The reluctance to accept science is rampant among people who don't understand science, and the inability to distinguish between supposition and fact is a growing problem in this country, reflecting a basic weakness in our educational system.

Since there is such a dearth of scientific study on swingers and swinger issues, all that the contributors to this Forum can possibly provide is their own individual experiences and the opinions they have developed from those personal experiences and the experiences of other swingers whom they know. So long as people don't present their own experiences as THE GOSPEL on swinging, then the collective experiences shared by Forum posters will provide entertainment, at least, and at best some help to those who have posed questions or issues about swinging.

And THAT is why there is value in a FORUM such as this.

And a tip of the cap to those who submit their opinions and personal experiences for the benefit of others, while still carefully stating that this is just their own experience, or that they have no data to support something but here is what they THINK (as opposed to KNOW). Care taken not to stretch one's opinion or personal experiences into UNIVERSAL TRUTH is a trait that establishes credibility and makes some opinions more useful than others to those who post a question to the FORUM.

South Riding VA
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Like2wish makes a valid point that we overlooked. The original poster DID mention they use separate rooms until the next morning! That, we think, is a horse of a different color altogether from the kind of separate room play described by Content, and which is typical of our swinging as well.

We usually begin with straight socializing over hors d'oeuvres or snacks of some kind, enjoying catching up on the news of each other's lives, reestablishing the friendship bond, flirting, and then wandering off to separate rooms for sex, which, like Content said, usually lasts from a half hour to a couple of hours, depending on the couple (we have one couple that is always very quick and then done), the mood, etc. The first couple finished usually lies in bed chatting and laughing for a while, then goes down to the kitchen and makes coffee and drags out a dessert. The 2nd couple joins them when they are finished. Normally by the time the first couple goes downstairs the 2nd couple is finished too and has been just chatting & laughing too, so they are rarely far behind. Maybe they just don't want the dessert to disappear! LOL! After all, if we've all had a good time we may have worked up an appetite! :-)

That describes a typical get-together with another couple. So the time together is about sex. The kind of sharing of values, hopes, dreams, worries, etc., etc. that goes into building a strong personal bond just doesn't happen in that short time together - at least not in our experience. Your mileage may vary.

Occasionally for no particular reason the 1st couple finished joins the 2nd couple on the king-sized bed in the master bedroom and all four of us lie there for a while talking and laughing, and usually caressing at the same time. And just as Content said, sometimes erections reappear and a 2nd round of play ensues in the same bed. That's nice too, but we need an EXTRA LARGE dessert after that! LOL!

Anyway, an hour or two in separate rooms enjoying each other sexually is not the same as spending the entire night together in separate rooms, which is not the same as dating separately. In fact, dating separately begins to be more like "Open Marriage" than swinging. But terminology aside, these all seem to represent different degrees of exposure to development of strong emotional attachments.

Obviously, lots, or even MOST, couples are "same room only" couples, which no doubt minimizes any risk of developing an intense emotional bond with the opposite-gender member of the other couple. So there is a whole continuum of styles that seem to involve different levels of risk of emotional attachment.

As L rightly points out, "emotional attachment" probably isn't the right term, either, since of course we all develop "emotional attachments" to our vanilla friends as well as swinging friends. What we are REALLY discussing here, I think, is FALLING IN LOVE with another person.

If we consider a continuum from "same room only" on one end to "separate dating" or "Open Marriage" on the other end, Mrs. Valovers and I would fall out somewhere closer to the "separate dating" point than to "same room only." Although we don't date separately, we have agreed that it's OK for either of us to play if we are apart anyhow because one or the other of us is away from home on business or any other travel. We've only done that a few times, but it's nice to have the opportunity to accept an invitation for fun.

South Riding VA
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Emotional attatchment is fine, as long as it's couple to couple. It's when it's individual to individual that problems arise.I think it's possible to love a couple as a couple, but I don't believe it's healthy to become exclusive to only one couple. Think of close vertical friends. There is emotional attachment there. You'd surely be heart broken if they'd suddenly be gone. Or am I missing the point of what is meant by emotional attatchment? Or are yas talking emotional attatchment combined with jealousy and possesiveness? Jealousy and possesiveness are total no gos in the swinging world. In fact jealousy is the most useless and negative emotion there is. Mebby this would make more sense if we could seperate the individual issues.

Bedford PA
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