nether tube tying or vasectomy is 100% anyway. I know several people who have gotten pregnant after having tubes tied and one girl that had a set of twins after having her tubes tied then another child after her husband had a vasectomy. And that doesn't even touch on the subject of STD's..........

Everyone saying they use condums but does anyone use mouth dam's, because you can get the same deseases by oral sex. So yes we use condums, but have been bareback two close friends. And no we dont use the oral dam's either but, dont think you are protected if they are having oral sex with you or you with them.
SnR.

There is no such thing as safe sex. Condoms do reduce some risks of some diseases. Condoms are a poor excuse for pregnancy prevention. Every couple I've ever known who used only condoms for preventing pregnancy became pregnant. It has a pregnancy prevention rate somewhere in the low 90th percentile, which means out of ten fucks you're likely to transmit enough sperm to become pregnant once. V-safe men and infertile woman seem to me the only sure bet in swinging for truly safe (pregnancy) sex. As to the risk of diseases, again condoms only reduce risks for some diseases. For example, for oral herpes condoms are not very effective. Oral herpes and genital herpes are different more for where they occur than in their make up or virility. Go down on a woman when you have oral herpes and you can infect her genitals. Go down on a woman with genital herpes and you can contract it orally. In fact the current medical wisdom assumes that 50% of the population has herpes. So there is an argument that we should consider herpes normal rather than a "disease". HPV is present in most sexually active adults. Most, more than half. So it too is actually normal. Many viruses (such as chicken pox) and bacteria are normally present in the majority of humans without causing disease. Disease is the state where the virus or bacteria spill out of the balance our immune systems normally maintain. HIV does not cause AIDS in about ten percent of the population. That is a fact not commonly reported. Searching for the reason for those people's immunity may give us a better means to combat HIV. Condoms reduce the risk of transmitting HIV but certainly don't eliminate the risk. Circumcision has been recently demonstrated to cut the transmission of HIV by over 50%. Another not publicized fact is that vasectomy, by eliminating sperm (cells) from ejaculate, reduces the risk of HIV transmission. HIV is more prevalent within the cells within bodily fluids than free floating within those bodily fluids. Risk in life comes in many forms. As many have noted, the risks from driving or smoking are greater for most people than the risks of HIV. Barebacking is a risk just like driving, skydiving, mountain climbing or smoking. Some who swing feel it is more fun and thus more justified than any of those. Each person has to decide what risks in life to take. We can argue about the relative risks of such decisions, but to condemn others for risks you've decided not to take is not your place. Condemning is a poor attempt to make oneself feel better about their own decisions.

Sugically safe...nice for you ...
Condoms--a must for us!
Just common sense folks..as someone said, Have you EVER had sex worth dying for>??
Not me!!

Now see, I took surgically safe on a woman to mean tubal or hysterectomy. I have had tubal, but condoms are a must because of disease.

In regards to the original question of vasectomy safe - is it safe sex - It seems to me that depends on what is read into it - it is certainly safer than a condom for protection against pregnancy - and obviously not of any bearing whatsoever in protection against STD's. So far as our opinion on if it has a place in the profile - we do not see any reason particularly to put it in ours though it is true but do find it to be a helpful piece of information if we find it in somebody elses profile. It never would enter into our decision as to wether or not to use condoms - that is based on the activity and what we see as the percieved risk and how well or long we known our playmates (which happen to be very few and far between). I might suggest that this is all inherently risky behavior and the simple fact that any of us indulge in it suggests our acceptance of a certain amount of risk. If we choose to mitigate that risk by using condoms that it a wise choice - but if we choose to mitigate by being very selective in partners (we in general avoid true "lifestylers"- based on our opinion that it is riskier to have sex with or without a condom with anybody that interacts with numerous / multiple partners than the casual single or couple out for the rare occasional evening of excitement and fantasy fulfillment. ) (let me also add that in my opinion race is not one of the factors) In our experience we have never had a meeting that the topic did not come up before the meeting and groundrules are set before any play for the activities - it may lose some spontanaity but it works for us.

for us it is protection or nothing . we beleive in it and if any one didnt like it then thats ok but not with us.

The lifestyle is full of choices. Everyone makes selections of people for play based on different reasons. Everyone makes decisions on what they are comfortable with. Bottom line there is no perfect answer it's always an individual answer as to what their limits are. There is no perfect safety(in the lifestyle). I mentioned before my experience is that I have never seen a MFMF or a MFF where the women never had fluids transfered. Trading a finger, trading a tongue, not changing condoms all transfer fluids/skin from one woman to another. A woman that gives a blow job on one guy and then trades to another guy...unless they are both wearing condoms then some fluid/skin is transfered. Even with condoms many woman will lick/kiss non latex covered skin and then do the same with another partner.. Condoms help, but it's not a 100% sure thing. There is risk.. no matter what you do or don't do. Some choices just increase your risk of catching an STD. My hope is that everyone in the lifestyle would consider getting std tested 1 -4 times a year. My thought is that during conversations with people I will decide if I feel someone else's choices put them at too great of a risk for my comfort level. Just be honest not only with yourselves, but with you partners. It will make the lifestyle more enjoyable and safe for everyone. For me Condoms are a yes, I can respect the people that say no. Though I most likely will decline on playing. Don't forget this lifestyle is about fantasy and fun, but not a single one of us should be doing this with our eyes closed.

Do you have any data at all to support the rhetoric you are spewing? Or do you just make things up and expect others to blindly believe in what you say? I think we have been very open about our sexual practices in having the balls to post what we have. Nowhere do we champion barebacking for others. All we have done is share our reasoning along with the data we base it on. That's more then what you have posted. We believe each couple can reach make their own choice in their sexual practices. You do have a vivid imagination that no where is in reality to what we do. But that must be your method to try and scare others into your way of thinking. We wish you best of luck in this lifestyle and do agree it is unlikely we will ever play together.

>>yes we all make chioces, and many have posted their chioces, have you? You claim bareback is not a death sentance, but do you do it?<< I didn't realize it was a requirement to participate in this discussion. But since you asked, yes we do play bareback with couples we are comfortable with. As we posted on another thread in this forum we do use condoms when playing with single men, black people, and anonymous encounters in clubs. >>I drive a car, motorcycle, dragrace (not streetrace) smoke, drink, use public toilets.... and still type this crap. And still look for swingers for some fun times. Showing and taking responsibility for my actions by practicing safe sex is being looked down on by non-smokers, how quaint!!!!<< We each make our own choices in the risks we take in life. We think that the risk of illness and smoking has been proven much better then HIV/AIDS and bareback swinging. Clearly you think otherwise. You are entitled to lead your life as you choose as do those of use who choose to play bareback. >> Just make sure that bareback partner you hook up with is as honest as his/her healthcard. Or do you even ask if they've been tested or how freely do they bareback?<< We try our best to follow your advice. And please use your helmet when riding your bike and try and cut back on your smoking. >>What is your criteria for deciding someone's safe enough to bareback?<< We play the odds and limit our barebacking to white long term couples. The statistics say that race and lifestyle choices do play a role in where HIV/AIDs is found. We have studied the data and look to limit our bareback play to low low risk population.