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Vermont wants out of the USA : Swingers Discussion 803871041
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TOPIC: Vermont wants out of the USA
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While I'm sure you neocons would love to find a scapegoat for the growing discontent and polarization that has been incurred on this nation, the reality is yes, it's your own fault. Gee Dubya, Tricky Dicky Cheney, Rummy Rumsfeld and the gang have done more to summarily dismantle what this country once stood for than any administration in it's history. Rationalize it however you like, it won't stop the civil war from being bloody.

Goose Creek SC
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SO ER

You irrationally think this is all W's fault. Amazing you're so naieve. Do you honestly believe that the govt hasn't been able to listen to your phone calls since the 50's? The NSA has been looking at mailing patterns since the late 40s. And honestly, you think saddam didn't have wmds... ask the kurds what they think of that. The problems in america were here along time before bush... it's just malcontent mothers basement anarchist liek you and disingenious liberals won't admitt it.

Lake Worth FL
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"Whatever happened to americans uniting for the good of the country...."

Lies, and damned lies.

Presidents claiming coutries have WMDs, declaring an "imminent threat", and invading sovereign countries under false pretenses. Leaders giving the okay to tap phones "for your own good". Leaders giving the okay to incarcerate Americans without due process. Etc. etc and so forth.

Consumerism isn't the problem. It's the liers that have brought us here where we stand.

Goose Creek SC
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Well ER

It's to bad we can't get back to the philosophy of 'what unites us as americans is far greater than the things that divide us". Civil discourse has gone by the way side. It is ashame that people have to be enemies because of political differences. Whatever happened to americans uniting for the good of the country.... Personally i think it's has to do with the consumerism, instant gratification that we see rampent int eh country. ' but what the hell do i know.

Lake Worth FL
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I think this movement in Vermont is very telling. It shows that there are a significant number of people in that state that are discontent with the status quo. It shows that there is at least 13% of the people who are not "proud to be Americans" as Joe put it. And if there is 13% in that state you can assume there are at least as many in all the others. That's a pretty large number of people, and it's obviously a growing trend. With the yawning divide between liberals and conservatives, hate rhetoric, calling each other "enemies" etc. it is likely the margin of discontented people will continue to grow. Next is critical mass, then one spark to ignite the boom, and wham, we've got our next civil war. I wouldn't be so complacent about this if I were a statist...

Goose Creek SC
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And lets not forget that in 2003 CA nearly defaulted on their state govt issued bonds. CA Debt was thought ot be "junk". Most advisors still don't keep a large portion of CA dept in portfolios. SPEND SPEND SPEND SPEND is CA motto.

Lake Worth FL
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Lets see angel Grommand, Emmerson electric, Boeing, McDonnell Douglas, Chrysler, Keep Mo going pretty well. Two Aerospace Companies. Two new Ethanol plant being built, I could go on but gotta go clean up a Accident on I 44 this morning have a great day. Lucky

Saint Louis MO
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Angel,

If you want one specific guide I suggest using what Charles Rangel (Rep - NY), Chairman of the House Ways and Means Committee recommends. This report is funded by Congress:

The Tax Foundation Special Report, Published 6 Times per year by the Tax Foundation, an Independent Organization Chartered in the District of Columbia. Take that info to any Public Library or a Borders or a Barnes and Noble and it has complete breakdowns on not only what state governments get in return on their tax dollar, but private businesses, universities and individuals as well.

In their last report dated February 2007 it reflects that the GOVERNMENT of California receives back approximately .65 cents for every tax dollar it's citizens pay to the federal government. It also reflects that UNIVERSITIES and PRIVATE businesses in California with approved government grants, loans, tax credits and subsidies account for another .70 cents per tax paying citizen. The Tax Foundation TOTALS that at $1.35 return per citizen, not I.

However, in the Sacramento Bee, just last month, Arnold provided similar numbers and his State Comptroller, John Chiang along with Arnold proclaimed that $1.35 was NOT enough. Both Arnold and Chiang felt that with California's population, continued growth in immigration, the state's contribution to the U.S. produce and wine industry, along with the state support of the U.S. harbors, Tech and pharmaceutical industries that for every dollar that is sent to Washington; California should get approximately $2.50 in return. Arnold seems to feel that with what California contributes to the rest of the nation his state gets short changed by the U.S. Government.

Personally, I think Arnold is just a smart business person and negotiator. He knows he will not get $2.50 for every tax dollar, but a smart business person always asks for more and in most cases will get a number closer to the actual need.

Minden NV
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You can get them from numerous places such as uscongress*gov, the IRS website, the GAO website, economic links and studies provided by universities to the government, Governor Schwarznegger's spending and budget statistics which are on the Governor's Website as well as reported in all the newspapers i.e., Sacramento Bee, San Fran, San Jose etc, not to mention the websites of California's own representatives in Washington such as Nancy Pelosi, Barbra Boxner etc.

You are not the only one who worked for the U.S. Government and has a little understanding on the daily operation of our government. Example, I also have a government retirement, but do file taxes every year. My retirement pay (1099-R) is also tax exempt but it is not exempt from total reported income.

California, like New York where I grew up, is in debt up to it's eyeballs. If California separated from the U.S., it's debt would increase exponentially, plus all the private businesses that have government grants, subsidies or loans would either need to relocate, pay back the monies or have the state pick up those grants/subsidies/loans. Almost all the Tech and pharmaceutical industries in California receive federal monies and they employ hundred‘s of thousands. These businesses would lose these grants or loans unless they moved into another U.S. state.

The farmers in California would PAY for their water which they import for other surrounding states. The wages they pay now such as one dollar per one watermelon picked, or $100 per filled truck, by the undocumented AND unreported laborers would mostly likely drop causing even the those who are illegal to stage a revolt.

In the matter of secession, to say California, or for that matter any state, would not suffer economically, as well as politically seems naive. Maybe long term a state could rebound, but the initially would have years of economical and environmental impact that the loss of federal monies, jobs, as well as the loss of federal subsidies like education, parks and recreation, welfare, unemployment, disabilities, housing assistance, Medicaid, Medicare etc. The new tax burdens on California taxpayers who already feel overtaxed would most likely also cause dissention and rebellion within the state.

Minden NV
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The STATE of California i.e., the state government itself, gets back approximately .65 cents for every dollar it's citizens send to the U.S. Government. However, under U.S. Government "parenting" laws, California to include both the State Government and Private Businesses within the state receives $1.35 for every tax dollar that the U.S. government collects.

Since you say you are a former U.S. government employee I assume you understand the term "parenting" does not have anything to do with children, but the federal governments oversight of each states needs, both at the non-profit state level and in the private business sector.

....and the "my Daddy can beat up your Daddy" comments, distract from your posts, which I mostly find to be thought provoking, informed, well thought out and on point with an opposite view.

Minden NV
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TOPIC: Vermont wants out of the USA