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TOPIC: Lifecycle of a Democracy
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"As much as you try to sound like a Centrist, you always let your core beliefs slip out.

As I see it, the biggest problems with unions is they limit what you can make. :-)"

No, I actually am very much a centrist. Many of my beliefs do lean to the left, but I've got some right leaning views as well. Not to mention that I'm always willing to move towards the center line on practically anything.

As far as the wealthy go, many of the people I know resent the rich because they feel it wasn't earned, but inherited, stolen or a combination of both. While I don't entirely disagree with that sentiment (at least among the super wealthy in this country), I still don't have any ill will for them simply for being rich. But I do resent them because they rarely suffer the consequences of their actions. 1 bad business decision after another has Hostess shutting down and putting 18000 workers on the street. Not only will those executives be fine, but they really couldn't care less about the company going under nor do they give 2 shits about any of the people they just put out of work.

So yeah, I say fuck them. Not because they're rich, but because they're despicable human beings who only live to collect money and don't really care about anything or anyone else.

T

Danville PA
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Big:

The have nots wouldn't have the numbers to out vote the haves, if the haves were to pay more to the have nots.

The top 1% stopped paying the middle men enough and the middle men stopped paying the lower brackets anything the government didn't decide was the lowest society could fall.

We have entire families living out of cars because employers deliberately do not provide full time employment, to say nothing about the cost of healthcare. (which all families need, but only the top and middle class can actually get full coverage for)

So stop blaming the masses and start blaming the top for pushing the masses to depend upon the government. If the top provided actual incentives that real people can point to as succses stories (from within their communities, not a faceless name from without the community) the people would work harder...

Which brings me to both a simple math problem and reality that you aren't part of.

If thirty years ago working hard was 10 points and twenty years ago, your boss commanded you to work harder, you are now working at 12 points. Then every year after that, the boss commanded you to work harder still, by thirty years time, are you not working 70 points?

Reality is that the top want the bottom to work like slaves, working harder each year, and each year losing more benefits, losing more wages just to keep the bosses business open. All the while the pay the boss receives doubles and triples.

If this isn't the start of slavery, what is?

A man is a slave to his family, and a family is a slave to needs and those needs are only provided for by money paid to the man. There for the man is a slave to both money and his employer.

When all employers pay poverty wages with no meaningful raises or protential for advancement without additional education which cost more than the man has to pay for... You have created a slave cast.

Hazle Township PA
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a democracy will last as long as most of the voters knows what a real demoracy is and the cost(lives and money)to keep it.when voters ask the goverment to give them any thing at the cost of fellow cizitiens,it's gone.............o one other thing, the last four presadents were shit,we scrap the bottom of the barrel...........BS.....hey fun I'am baacckk...hang kool bro.

Kingston TN
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Since the first time this appeared is in the early 50's, I am thinking that it was probably written by an unnamed John Birch Society member...

But I could be wrong...

Fullerton CA
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I don't really expect answers or clarification about the "quote" in the OP, but I'll go ahead and say why I think on its face it's mostly fluff. 

The very first sentence (that no democracy can exist indefinitely) is pure rubbish. The duration of a democracy depends on its people, who are not ruled by some half-baked fatalistic theory that every nation must go through "stages" on the inevitable path to implosion. Saying that no democracy can ever survive indefinitely because it's  never happened before, is like all those people who said no one could ever break a 4-minute mile because it never happened before. Until it did. 

The history of our own country has not been marked by neat little stages. A certain degree of selfishness is a necessary ingredient for capitalism and has existed throughout our history. As has courage, liberty, and all the other little attributes asserted to be "stages." 

They all have waxed and waned; it hasn't been a tidy, simplistic progression. The roaring '20's was a period of selfishness, affluence, and apathy all wrapped up together. According to Tytler's theory, all of those are supposed to come after the courage stage, but I would argue that the national courage displayed during WWII (and again in the immediate aftermath of 9-11) belies his theory. 

Simple minds always seek simplistic answers and neat little boxes to put everything into. That way, they don't have to confront complexities. The Lifecycle theory has no basis in history. Some people seem to think it's brilliant. I say it's fluff. 

Belle Chasse LA
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"What sources do you have that dispute the premise?"

I like to understand a premise before I decide to agree or disagree with it, which is why I asked where the author has explicated or fleshed out what he's saying: "What democracies/republics does he discuss? What examples does he give of these stages? What historical evidence does he offer that might be predictive for us? Where's the beef?"

Your only response to my questions was a suggestion, without saying it, that Tytler might have been referring to Greece and Rome. You suggested that the OP "quote" was consistent with other things Tytler has written, without identifying those sources or, for that matter, even saying that you've actually read any of them. 

If you've actually read anything else by Tytler, perhaps you can enlighten us on what he means by the "selfishness" stage. Selfishness by whom, about what? Is he referring to selfishness by the financial elite, or by the moocher class? I'd ask the same questions about the other purported "stages" in the OP's premise. 

Discussing whether there is any historical validity to the OP's premise is difficult if you can't even identify the earlier civilizations that supposedly imploded due to people voting themselves more stuff from the public fisc. 

Unlike your previous mentions of this "quote," this time you left off Tytler's assertion to the effect that great civilizations last only about 200 years. So, it doesn't appear that he is relying on the Roman Empire as historical evidence. Nor could he, as there is no history of the Roman Plebian class voting themselves largesse from the Emperor. Can you enlighten us as to which specific democracy is being used as historical evidence for this theory that democracies are bound to fail?

Belle Chasse LA
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Did someone decide we need a new word for "childish"?

Flat Rock NC
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1.silly: regarded as childishly silly or immature 2.relating to childhood: relating to or characteristic of childhood

Imperial MO
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What's "puerile"?

Flat Rock NC
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"Ghost, I would prefer a mature and intelligent discussion over a puerile "battle" to see who has more verbal machismo. Sorry that you see it that way."

Do YOU see it that way? I did not get the impression from your continued replies to your opponents responses to your posts that you were 'trying to have an intelligent debate' but more of an intellectual evisceration of one more low information neoclown when you get right to the nub of it...

My bad :-*

East Fishkill NY
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TOPIC: Lifecycle of a Democracy