Lifecycle of a Democracy: Swingers Discussion 2118891032

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Lifecycle of a Democracy: Swingers Discussion 2118891032

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TOPIC: Lifecycle of a Democracy

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User Details are only visible to members.	Since the first time this appeared is in the early 50's, I am thinking that it was probably written by an unnamed John Birch Society member... But I could be wrong...
Lakeside CA			Username hidden (15742 post)

User Details are only visible to members.	I don't really expect answers or clarification about the "quote" in the OP, but I'll go ahead and say why I think on its face it's mostly fluff. The very first sentence (that no democracy can exist indefinitely) is pure rubbish. The duration of a democracy depends on its people, who are not ruled by some half-baked fatalistic theory that every nation must go through "stages" on the inevitable path to implosion. Saying that no democracy can ever survive indefinitely because it's never happened before, is like all those people who said no one could ever break a 4-minute mile because it never happened before. Until it did. The history of our own country has not been marked by neat little stages. A certain degree of selfishness is a necessary ingredient for capitalism and has existed throughout our history. As has courage, liberty, and all the other little attributes asserted to be "stages." They all have waxed and waned; it hasn't been a tidy, simplistic progression. The roaring '20's was a period of selfishness, affluence, and apathy all wrapped up together. According to Tytler's theory, all of those are supposed to come after the courage stage, but I would argue that the national courage displayed during WWII (and again in the immediate aftermath of 9-11) belies his theory. Simple minds always seek simplistic answers and neat little boxes to put everything into. That way, they don't have to confront complexities. The Lifecycle theory has no basis in history. Some people seem to think it's brilliant. I say it's fluff.
San Quentin CA			Username hidden (8604 post)

User Details are only visible to members.	"What sources do you have that dispute the premise?" I like to understand a premise before I decide to agree or disagree with it, which is why I asked where the author has explicated or fleshed out what he's saying: "What democracies/republics does he discuss? What examples does he give of these stages? What historical evidence does he offer that might be predictive for us? Where's the beef?" Your only response to my questions was a suggestion, without saying it, that Tytler might have been referring to Greece and Rome. You suggested that the OP "quote" was consistent with other things Tytler has written, without identifying those sources or, for that matter, even saying that you've actually read any of them. If you've actually read anything else by Tytler, perhaps you can enlighten us on what he means by the "selfishness" stage. Selfishness by whom, about what? Is he referring to selfishness by the financial elite, or by the moocher class? I'd ask the same questions about the other purported "stages" in the OP's premise. Discussing whether there is any historical validity to the OP's premise is difficult if you can't even identify the earlier civilizations that supposedly imploded due to people voting themselves more stuff from the public fisc. Unlike your previous mentions of this "quote," this time you left off Tytler's assertion to the effect that great civilizations last only about 200 years. So, it doesn't appear that he is relying on the Roman Empire as historical evidence. Nor could he, as there is no history of the Roman Plebian class voting themselves largesse from the Emperor. Can you enlighten us as to which specific democracy is being used as historical evidence for this theory that democracies are bound to fail?
San Quentin CA			Username hidden (8604 post)

User Details are only visible to members.	Did someone decide we need a new word for "childish"?
Flat Rock NC			Username hidden (2837 post)

User Details are only visible to members.	1.silly: regarded as childishly silly or immature 2.relating to childhood: relating to or characteristic of childhood
Saint Louis MO			Username hidden (12119 post)

User Details are only visible to members.	What's "puerile"?
Flat Rock NC			Username hidden (2837 post)

User Details are only visible to members.	"Ghost, I would prefer a mature and intelligent discussion over a puerile "battle" to see who has more verbal machismo. Sorry that you see it that way." Do YOU see it that way? I did not get the impression from your continued replies to your opponents responses to your posts that you were 'trying to have an intelligent debate' but more of an intellectual evisceration of one more low information neoclown when you get right to the nub of it... My bad :-*
East Fishkill NY			Username hidden (2772 post)

User Details are only visible to members.	This is interesting. :A professional deposit banker (argentarius, coactor argentarius, or later nummularius) received and held deposits for a fixed or indefinite term, and lent money to third parties.[565] The senatorial elite were involved heavily in private lending, both as creditors and borrowers, making loans from their personal fortunes on the basis of social connections.[566] The holder of a debt could use it a means of payment by transferring it to another party, without cash changing hands. Although it has sometimes been thought that ancient Rome lacked "paper" or documentary transactions, the system of banks throughout the Empire also permitted the exchange of very large sums without the physical transfer of coins, in part because of the risks of moving large amounts of cash, particularly by sea. Only one serious credit shortage is known to have occurred in the early Empire, a credit crisis in 33 AD that put a number of senators at risk; the central government rescued the market through a loan of 100 million HS made by the emperor Tiberius to the banks (mensae).[567] Generally, available capital exceeded the amount needed by borrowers.[568] The central government itself did not borrow money, and without public debt had to fund deficits from cash reserves.[569] Emperors of the Antonine and Severan dynasties overall debased the currency, particularly the denarius, under the pressures of meeting military payrolls.[570] Sudden inflation during the reign of Commodus damaged the credit market.[571] In the mid-200s, the supply of specie contracted sharply.[572] Conditions during the Crisis of the Third Century—such as reductions in long-distance trade, disruption of mining operations, and the physical transfer of gold coinage outside the empire by invading enemies—greatly diminished the money supply and the banking sector by the year 300.[573] Although Roman coinage had long been fiat money or fiduciary currency, general economic anxieties came to a head under Aurelian, and bankers lost confidence in coins legitimately issued by the central government. Despite Diocletian's introduction of the gold solidus and monetary reforms, the credit market of the Empire never recovered its former robustness.[574]
Saint Louis MO			Username hidden (12119 post)

User Details are only visible to members.	The primary source of direct tax revenue was individuals, who paid a poll tax and a tax on their land, construed as a tax on its produce or productive capacity.[183] Supplemental forms could be filed by those eligible for certain exemptions; for example, Egyptian farmers could register fields as fallow and tax-exempt depending on flood patterns of the Nile.[188] Tax obligations were determined by the census, which required each head of household to appear before the presiding official and provide a head count of his household, as well as an accounting of property he owned that was suitable for agriculture or habitation.[188] A major source of indirect-tax revenue was the portoria, customs and tolls on imports and exports, including among provinces.[183] Special taxes were levied on the slave trade. Toward the end of his reign, Augustus instituted a 4 percent tax on the sale of slaves,[189] which Nero shifted from the purchaser to the dealers, who responded by raising their prices.[190] An owner who manumitted a slave paid a "freedom tax", calcuated at 5 percent of value.[191] An inheritance tax of 5 percent was assessed when Roman citizens above a certain net worth left property to anyone but members of their immediate family. Revenues from the estate tax and from a 1 percent sales tax from auctions went toward the veterans' pension fund (aerarium militare).[183] Low taxes helped the Roman aristocracy increase their wealth, which equaled or exceeded the revenues of the central government. An emperor sometimes replenished his treasury by confiscating the estates of the "superrich," but in the later period, the resistance of the wealthy to paying taxes was one of the factors contributing to the collapse of the Empire.[31]
Saint Louis MO			Username hidden (12119 post)

User Details are only visible to members.	Taxation under the Empire amounted to about 5 percent of gross product.[29] The typical tax rate paid by individuals ranged from 2 to 5 percent.[183] The tax code was "bewildering" in its complicated system of direct and indirect taxes, some paid in cash and some in kind. Taxes might be specific to a province, or kinds of properties such as fisheries or salt evaporation ponds; they might be in effect for a limited time.[184] Tax collection was justified by the need to maintain the military,[185] and taxpayers sometimes got a refund if the army captured a surplus of booty.[186] In-kind taxes were accepted from less-monetized areas, particularly those who could supply grain or goods to army camps.[187]
Saint Louis MO			Username hidden (12119 post)

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TOPIC: Lifecycle of a Democracy