Lifecycle of a Democracy: Swingers Discussion 2118891061

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Lifecycle of a Democracy: Swingers Discussion 2118891061

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TOPIC: Lifecycle of a Democracy

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User Details are only visible to members.	"But I do know that unions rarely (if ever) back down. They dig in and don't budge. They take and take and take but never want to concede or give back." You're kidding right? Just about every union in existence has taken concessions. Auto workers, the airline industries, manufacturing. The only ones I see that don't are teachers.
New Kensington PA			Username hidden (2138 post)

User Details are only visible to members.	"As I see it, the biggest problems with unions is they limit what you can make. :-)" Absolutely not true. Contracted negotiated wages between a company and a union are the minimum a company can pay, not the maximum. Some contracts even have an incentive clause. There were people in my company, including myself who, at some point, made more then the negotiated wage. Again it all comes down to the company. they are the ones who can reward or choose to step on their employees for the sake of the almighty dollar.
Cape Coral FL			Username hidden (4080 post)

User Details are only visible to members.	Cplo: Consessions are taking a small loss, not halting everything in less than a decade. 48,000 to the low 20k wages. Cutting or eliminating benefits, ect. The union workers already did this and like most every union worker knows, once you allow the employers to keep crying poverty, they will never stop crying poverty while they rake in the money. This is why the personal incomes if managment ought to be open to the unions during the negotiations. This way you can say legitly that you are being placed into the poor house... Anything less is simply you (managment) trying to pull the wool over the unions eyes. So now we all get to pay into these people's unemployment. Personally I believe that given the mentality if the employers these days and the spiteful actions from employers like popa john, that unemployment should be perminate until a job of equal pay/benefits is obtained for the worker. If we want to keep fostering greedy employers, than we should suffer for this environment we encourage.
Hazle Township PA			Username hidden (4846 post)

User Details are only visible to members.	"Well, the first paragraph of the OP is generally attributed to Alexander Fraser Tytler. He studied Greece and Rome as well as others. " The quote has been attributed to at least a half dozen authors, including Arnold Toynbee, Alexander Tyler, Lord Thomas Macaulay, Benjamin Disraeli, Alexis de Tocqueville, and Lord Woodhouselee. And a search finds the first instance of this appearing in print as 1951. The quote itself seems to come from two different sources. But it is in keeping with the rest of your beliefs. A mile wide and an inch deep...
Lakeside CA			Username hidden (15741 post)

User Details are only visible to members.	"In an ideal world, the workers would care about the company as much as their paychecks and the bosses would care about the employees as much as they care about the company." Unfortunately that "ideal world" is not going to happen. There will always be disgruntled employees no matter how well they are treated, but I honestly believe it starts with the company. Basic human nature says that if you are treated with respect you will return that respect. I worked for only one company and over the years had three different bosses. Of the three there was only one I would have gone through hell and high water for. That is not to say I hated the other two, but they simply did not have the ability to command respect the one had.
Cape Coral FL			Username hidden (4080 post)

User Details are only visible to members.	"But the bottom line is that the company was on the ropes and needed help. I know they were asking the union to take pretty big cuts, especially when it came to pensions." From what I understand concessions were made during the previous contract negotiations and still nothing improved as management continued bad business policies. I understand a lot of people will be out of work, but it was their vote. They were the ones working under the company's conditions not you or I. Sometimes not working at all is better then being humiliated and that seems to be the case here.
Cape Coral FL			Username hidden (4080 post)

User Details are only visible to members.	But if your place of employment has a union and you aren't part if it, your plight is worthless. Really? 18500 workers lost their job because 5000 workers werent willing to sacrifice for a couple of years so that everyone could stay employed? That is greed.
Saint Louis MO			Username hidden (12119 post)

User Details are only visible to members.	"They've already got their mansions, their boats and their millions. They'll also probably slide right into another job with another company because the rich look out for the rich. " As much as you try to sound like a Centrist, you always let your core beliefs slip out. As I see it, the biggest problems with unions is they limit what you can make. :-)
Pittsburgh PA			Username hidden (14618 post)

User Details are only visible to members.	Unions, by and large, are good for the workforce and a necessity to ensure that their members get fair wages and benefits, along with the proper equipment, safety gear, facilities, etc in order to do their job safely and efficiently. Unions are the check to the company's balance. There's no mistaking the fact that Hostess put itself in a hole with poor decisions and heavy turnover with their President/CEO/whatever the hell he was called. That is certainly no fault of the workers. But the bottom line is that the company was on the ropes and needed help. I know they were asking the union to take pretty big cuts, especially when it came to pensions. I don't know if they were asking to cut more than what they really needed or if it was a legitimate amount of cuts in order to keep the company afloat. But I do know that unions rarely (if ever) back down. They dig in and don't budge. They take and take and take but never want to concede or give back. What's fairly obvious to me though is that Hostess was in a major bind and the union stood it's ground until 18000 people were left without a job. The sensible thing to me would have been to accept the cuts until the company rebounds when they will then sit down and renegotiate for more lucrative wages, benefits and pensions. Hostess should have (and maybe they did, I don't know) offered to compensate those impacted by the cuts once the company is out of debt. Everyone bitches about loyalty. Companies have no loyalty to their workers but workers are often guilty of having no loyalty to their employer as well. In an ideal world, the workers would care about the company as much as their paychecks and the bosses would care about the employees as much as they care about the company. Both sides need to give and take equally. I feel for the workers, especially the non-union people who are out of a job. They made less money than their unionized counterparts for doing the same work. I feel for the union guys too because their leadership failed them tremendously. What's really sad though is that the people at the top who made some really bad decisions that put the company in a hole in the first place are going to come out of this relatively unscathed. They've already got their mansions, their boats and their millions. They'll also probably slide right into another job with another company because the rich look out for the rich. The workers will be jobless in a tough job market. Some will lose their homes, their cars, their families and whatever savings they may have had. T
Danville PA			Username hidden (1854 post)

User Details are only visible to members.	Lucky: Save your breath on the plight of the non-union workers in a shop with a union. If your shop has no union, that is one thing... Many places are without unions... But if your place of employment has a union and you aren't part if it, your plight is worthless. I will sooner listen to the plight of the management members over the plight of the non-union worker in a place with a union.
Hazle Township PA			Username hidden (4846 post)

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TOPIC: Lifecycle of a Democracy