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Imagine if the South had seceded and the Blue States were free of Grey-Red Conservatism : Swingers Discussion 977951041
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FORUMSGeneral DiscussionsPoliticsImagine if the South had seceded and the Blue States were free of Grey-Red Conservatism
TOPIC: Imagine if the South had seceded and the Blue States were free of Grey-Red Conservatism
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I won't vote for anyone who wants gun control. Man or woman.

Spencer TN
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General Grant made the comment that, "The sole object of this war is to restore the Union. Should I be convinced it has any other object, or that the government designs using its soldiers to execute the wishes of the abolitionists, I pledge to you my honor as a man and a soldier I would resign my commission and carry my sword to the other side" in a letter to the Chicago Tribune 1862. Union General William T. Sherman said in 1864 "I am honest in my belief that it is not fair to my men to count negros as equals. Let us capture negros, of course, and use them to the best advantage." As I said before, these two men both owned slaves, and did not want to free them. I honestly do not see how so many "politically correct" people can stand there and say the "North was right."

Confederate General Robert E. Lee, however, saw the world of slavery from a different view. He said "There are few, I believe, in this enlightened age, who will not acknowledge that slavery is an institution of a moral and political evil" In 1858. In 1866 he also made a statement that "All the south ever desired was that the union, as established by our forefathers, be preserved; and that the Government, as originally organized, should be administered in purity and truth." It wasn't a far fetched idea yet the people in this country then and still today are yet to grasp hold of something like morals, purity, or truth. But I guess that's where Confederate States President Jefferson Davis comes in with "Truth crushed to the earth is truth still and like a seed will rise again."

Now because of slavery over 150 years ago, whites are being treated like dirt. It is almost like the mentality of a kid I knew in school who told me once that since I'm white that my family owned slaves and I should owe him everything I own. That's not the mentality of a country that should be living together in harmony. You never see the ones who are pissed at the white population for crimes committed 150 plus years ago ever leaving to go live in Africa. If you are going to hold every white person accountable for the acts of whites AND blacks more than a lifetime ago, then go to Africa and hold them accountable as well. Until then, learn the facts before you speak. If you speak intellectually I will gladly listen to and respect you, otherwise I will blow you off as another ignorant individual who couldn't pay attention to true history to save your life.

"Surrender means that the history of this heroic struggle will be written off by the enemy, that our youths will be taught by Northern school teachers; learn from Northern school books THEIR version of the war." Confederate General Patrick R. Cleburne 1864

Spencer TN
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First things first, the 16th president of the United States, Abraham Lincoln; Lincoln was NOT an abolitionist. William Lloyd Garrison, the most prominent of all abolitionists, concluded that Lincoln "had not a drop of anti-slavery blood in his veins." Lincoln was against social and political equality of the races, he opposed inter-racial marriages, supported the Illinois Constitution's prohibition of immigration of blacks into the state, defended a slave owner who was seeking to retrieve his runaway slaves but never defended slaves or runaways themselves, and he was a lifelong advocate of colonization - of sending every last black person in the U.S. to Africa, Haiti, or central America - anywhere but in the United States. In August of 1852 Lincoln said "If I could save the Union without freeing any slave I would do it… what I do about slavery and the colored race, I do because I believe it helps to save the Union." Lincoln also said on September 18th, 1858, "I will say, then, that I am not, nor have I ever been, in favor of bringing about in any way the social and political equality of the white and black races." In 1861 Lincoln was asked "why not let the South go in peace?" He replied by saying "I can't let them go. Who would pay for the government?" I have found no proof that Lincoln was a slave owner, but I can tell you without a doubt in my mind that he was not seeking to abolish slavery.

Two acts of Congress were passed during the Civil War, One in 1864 (13 Stat. 11) and one in 1866 (14 Stat. 321) which allowed slave owners whose slaves enlisted or were drafted into the Union military to file a claim against the Federal Government for loss of the slave's services. The Emancipation Proclamation of 1863 freed slaves in the Southern or 'rebellious' states but in border-states that were loyal to the Union, slavery continued to be legal. If a slave ran away to join the military and the owner knew where and when he joined, the owner could file a compensation claim as long as he or she was loyal to the Union. There were also free blacks who owned slaves. And something else you might not know, it was the Africans who sold their own people into slavery. Union Generals Grant and Sherman were slave owners as well. Confederate Generals Jackson and Lee were not.

Spencer TN
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Lincoln’s Emancipation Proclamation was issued well into the war with the purpose of preventing foreign intervention. The Proclamation freed slaves only in parts of the Confederacy where Lincoln had no legal authority. Slaves in the North where the federal government had legitimate authority were freed only after the war. Robert E. Lee did not own slaves, but many Union generals did. When Lee’s father-in-law died, he took over the management of the plantation his wife had inherited and immediately began freeing the slaves. By the time Lincoln issued the Emancipation Proclamation in 1863, every slave in Lee’s charge had been freed. Yet some Union generals didn’t free their slaves until the ratification of the 14th Amendment in 1868.

When the schools of the South were reopened after the war, the great majority of the youth of the land were fed with a literature created by Northerners. Publishers whose sole purpose was to secure the great market now opening in every school district in the South issued books that were found to be full of error and misrepresentation. The aims of the people of the South and of their state governments were falsified, and the characters of the great men who had led the South were belittled and defamed. Hence a generation grew up with conceptions of the motives of their fathers that were not only mistaken but altogether dishonorable. The result was that the youth of the South were robbed of a glorious and proud heritage.

Little has changed today. That slavery was the cause of the war; that prisoners of war held in the South were treated barbarously; that Jefferson Davis and Robert E. Lee were traitors to their country; that the young men who died willingly on a hundred battlefields were rebels against a righteous government—all these falsehoods continue to be taught and perpetuated. Even schoolteachers in the South, ignorant of their own history, accept the Northern view that slavery was the cause of the war. They take this position despite the fact that the quarrel between the North and the South began when slavery existed in all the States.

In 1898, 34 years after Sherman’s army burned Atlanta to the ground, a Union veteran visited the city. The veteran addressed the Georgia legislature, praising the valor of the Confederate dead and offering federal aid in the care of their graves. Georgia rose up to welcome him and with Georgia the whole South. It was a magnificent gesture by President William McKinley, who had been a teenager at Antietam. The scene has been recreated by biographer Margaret Leech in her book In the Days of McKinley:

He sprang to his feet when the band played “Dixie” and waved his hat above his head. He reviewed the marching ranks of gray-clad troops....His voice was fervent as he said that the old disagreements had faded into history and the nation would remain indivisible forever. Gen. Joe Wheeler often stood beside the president, swelling the ovation by his immense popularity.

By David Black

Spencer TN
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Lincoln supported the Illinois law that prohibited the immigration of blacks into that state and advocated sending blacks to Haiti, Central America, or Africa. In his eulogy to Henry Clay in 1852, he said, “There is a moral fitness to the idea of returning to Africa her children….” In a message to Congress in 1862 he said: “I cannot make it any better known than it already is that I strongly favor colonization.” In a famous letter to Horace Greeley, editor of the New York Tribune, on August 22, 1862, he wrote, “My paramount objective in this struggle is to save the Union and is not either to save or destroy slavery. If I could save the Union without freeing any slave, I would do it.” That was Lincoln’s position.

Another common misconception is that Southern blacks were all slaves and could own no property. However, blacks themselves held slaves throughout the war. According to Roger D. McGrath, in “Slavery’s Inconvenient Facts,” Chronicles Magazine, November 2001, in 1860 some 3,000 blacks owned nearly 20,000 black slaves. In South Carolina alone, black slaveholders owned more than 10,000 blacks. Born a slave in 1790, William Ellison owned 63 slaves by 1860, making him one of Charleston’s leading slaveholders. In the 1850 census for Charleston City, the port of Charleston, there were 68 black men and 123 black women who owned slaves. In Louisiana’s St. Landry Parish, according to the 1860 census, black planter Auguste Donatto owned 70 slaves and farmed 500 acres of cotton fields. Of course, black slaveholders were the exception to the rule, but so were white ones. According to McGrath, only a small minority of Southern whites owned slaves—little more than five percent of the white population if calculated by individual owner, or twenty to twenty-five percent if all the members of the slave owners’ families are included. This means that seventy-five percent or more of Southerners neither owned slaves themselves nor were members of families who did.

Those who claimed that the war was not about slavery stretched from the Virginia farmer defending his humble home, to the first Southern commissioners seeking Britain’s recognition of the Confederacy, and even to Union generals. During the summer of 1861, the federal Congress passed resolutions saying that war would be fought only to “preserve the Union with all the dignity, equality, and rights of the several States unimpaired.” And General Ulysses S. Grant, who accepted Lee’s surrender on behalf of the Union at Appomattox Court House, Virginia, in April, 1865, once said that if he “thought this war was to abolish slavery, I would resign my commission, and offer my sword to the other side.” pt2

Spencer TN
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In the documentary, “Africans in America,” an African-American woman put it best when she said, “Slavery was not a Southern problem; it was an American problem.” The South did not create slavery—Northern ship merchants did that.

I recently spent a day examining several widely-used high school history textbooks and discovered that in dealing with the South before 1865 they include numerous false assumptions. Liberals who spread emotional lies about the war and about the South often go so far as to equate the Confederate flag with the Nazi swastika. Historical revisionists who attack the legitimacy of the Confederacy and its cause—and thus the right of Southerners to exist as a people with a unique culture and heritage—usually base their attacks upon falsehoods. The premier myths are the following:

Antebellum Southern whites treated their slaves cruelly, and nearly every white Southerner had slaves.

Slavery was practiced only by white Southerners, and when practiced was a sin, which damned all Southern whites and their descendants forever.

The Southern states attempted to leave the Union only to perpetuate slavery.

The Southern states could not lawfully secede from the Union; therefore they were in rebellion against the Union.

The Southern states fought a civil war with the intent to overthrow the federal government in Washington, D.C.

But the most insidious myth is that of the “great and good” North marching into the “cruel and evil” South for the sole purpose of freeing the slaves. There are many quotes from Northern leaders (Lincoln, Grant, Sherman, and others) that show clearly that the main purpose of the North was not the eradication of slavery but the subjugation of the Southern people. If you will take the time to study these commonly accepted myths, you will easily find them to be false and spread either accidentally, through ignorance, or else deliberately, with contempt towards Southerners.

Contrary to what most Americans are taught in school, Lincoln did not launch the war in order to make blacks equal with whites. In the Lincoln-Douglas debates he said, “I have no purpose to introduce political and social equality between the white and black races, and I have never said anything on the contrary.” In a speech in Illinois in 1858 he said that he was not in favor of making voters or jurors of blacks, or qualifying them to hold office or to intermarry with white people. In his own words:

I will say, then, that I am not now, nor never have been, in favor of bringing about in any way the social or political equality of the white and black races. I am not now, nor never have been, in favor of making voters or jurors of negroes, nor of qualifying them to hold office, nor of intermarriage with white people; and I will say, in addition to this, that there is a physical difference between the white and black races which, I believe, will forever forbid the two races living together in terms of social and political equality. Inasmuch as they cannot so live, while they do remain together, there must be a position of superior and inferior, and I, as much as any other man, am in favor of having the superior position assigned to the white man.

pt 1

Spencer TN
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So everyone in the South is deluded? I'm sorry Sapp but it is OUR history not yours. Believing the opinions of liberal writers is deluded. Believing in every word of Alex Haley's FICTIONAL novel Roots is delusional. The education we get from historians and re-enactors are different than the liberal slant you learn. The fact is slavery was an issue during the Civil War, but only towards the end. Freed slaves were treated very badly in the North. Excaped slaves were treated worse. Slaves were not treated as heroes in the North they were despised. There was slavery in the North. Not all northern states were non-slave states. The Emancipation Proclimation ONLY freed the slaves in the South. You are drinking your own Kool-Aid. That is not healthy. The issue of slavery is a moot point in todays society and economics, just as the Holocaust is. No one really cares what happened in 1861. That was then. It is illegal now just as it should been BEFORE the Civil War. Indentured Servitude should never have been legal either. But it was allowed in their time. So what?

Spencer TN
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If you lived in 1861 no matter where you lived which side would you have fought on or would you have tried to stay out completely? General topic and give a reason why.

I didnt want to start yet another topic thread (we all ready have enough being swallowed by this topic).

Saint Louis MO
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Sapp wrote: So we've got another sadly deluded Southerner not joining the peas in the pod who can't see an elepant in the room--the issue of slavery--even as the South, by defending it, was shitting all over human rights and provoking not just an economic confict but a moral, religious and political conflict with the North. According to Sappy if you live in the south or attend a slave state school you are sympothetic to the southern cause of slavery, and is ready to point his crooked finger at a southerner, but wait couple is a yankee who agrees that the civil war was pure economics and had very little to do with morality.

Saint Louis MO
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Well damn LOL nice post. I have been saying this all along, so count on a round of Bigotry accusations and innuendo from Sappy. I love it when he pointed his crooked little finger at the mixed up southerner....From one Yankee to another Cheers!!!!!!!!

Saint Louis MO
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TOPIC: Imagine if the South had seceded and the Blue States were free of Grey-Red Conservatism