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Imagine if the South had seceded and the Blue States were free of Grey-Red Conservatism : Swingers Discussion 977951011
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FORUMSGeneral DiscussionsPoliticsImagine if the South had seceded and the Blue States were free of Grey-Red Conservatism
TOPIC: Imagine if the South had seceded and the Blue States were free of Grey-Red Conservatism
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Damn it !!!!!!!!!!! argh!!!!!!!!!!!

LOL The split in the domocratic party on the ticket left no doubt and made the war inevidable. Actually it was more segnificant than the election of Lincoln.

Saint Louis MO
 
 
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Great Britain would never support a country that had the institution of slavery.

Saint Louis MO
 
 
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people seem to forget, that nothing was done about slavery in the states that remained in the union. Was Delaware invaded? The emancipation proclamation was a method to keep the radical abolitionists on his side and claim a moral high ground to keep Great Britain from actively supporting the CSA. Just think, if the British had come to the assistance of the CSA and had launched a second front from Canada. Lincoln would have had to divert resources from his invasion of the CSA to defend his own country. The USA would not have had the ability to fight a 2 front war, and the South's dream of independence might have been realized, and the years of harsh retribution, and confiscation of lands by the so called "reconstruction" would not have occurred. Many southern families lost their land and generations of work was taken away. I think there would have been a large migration of freed slaves to the north by the late 1800s, and the CSA would have looked more like Montana ethnically, and the North would have had more Gary, Indiana, Detroits, and Newarks.

Mentone AL
 
 
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Abe Lincoln's Birthday so I feel that I must honor those who fell for him. On both sides hundreds of thousands of young and old americans died. Brothers, and cousins, and uncles, fathers all fought against each other.I honor all those who chose to fight for their cause no matter which side they were on. Lincoln at Gettysburg honored all that died there, not just the Union soldiers. He was dedicated to all of them and their cause. I have visited Gettysburg a number of times in my life, I have visited as well countless battlefields of that era. While standing on Little round top, you can feel the spirits that roam there. The feeling that all of these men died for what ever cause they felt was just and right for them to do. I honor all of them for they had the fortitude and the balls to carry their individual fight to the next level and sacrificed for a cause no matter the origin.

Saint Louis MO
 
 
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"Lincoln helped lead a war against the WMD of institutionalized and legalized slavery, and if had to invade and occupy the South to do it, so be it. It was, in my view, a just war against the evil of slavery. He was reluctant to go to war, but the secession of the South forced his hand in order to preserve the Union."

Yes, that is the historical outcome which of course has been written about for the legacy of the Union and Lincoln. We won the war. We can write the history. I was also taught as a child in elementary school that we "the white man" progressively settled the West. The Nuns never spoke of Indian wars or killing natives in South America over gold, or conversion to Christianity, or the white man's inability to keep his word and his treaties. (and I got much of the same from public school to)-------so I've been sold half-truths before.

Like any interested academic I will and do keep an open mind with regard to changing my viewpoint, but any academic worth his or her salt should never accept everything as absolute. Hell the next History professor I meet might try and sell me on WWII began in 1898 when German military advisors to the Cubans were upset with us for kicking them out of Cuba, and they just carried a grudge for 40 years til' it just boiled over.

I believe that many historians in their quest for academic recognition like many academics and scientists I have met can either promote the status quo or dig for deeper meanings. Everyone knows that the war was going very badly for Lincoln, he launched the Emancipation in 1862 (and not 1860, as you all know of course). This was a brilliant move on Lincoln's part to invest the public in a higher moral purpose.

The Emancipation Proclamation was an executive order and was not ratified by Congress, as there was not enough support in Congress to pass it. It wasn't until we had won the war, did Congress step up with enough balls to ratify the 13th amendment in 1865.

Ironically I have been to another country where their historical experts view American history quite differently. I toured a fortress which was rebuilt in 1858 specifically to repel American invaders, to protect the harbor against invasion should we choose to invade them "AGAIN" and start another war. We were not portrayed as saviours. (and please note their historical academics are as respected as ours)

Any guesses which land?

Grantham NH
 
 
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Lucky: "But I had nothing to do with it [slavery] and I am a bigot and a racist."

1. Please clarify the above.

2. Do you think you have anything to do with the legacy of slavery, racism and segregation?

I think I have something to do with that legacy. Given the tragedy of slavery--one of the original sins of the American Republic-- I believe I have a duty, as an American citizen, to never forget what happened in America with slavery and to do our best in the present--in 2008--to continue the quest of Lincoln's reconstruction and MLK's dream: the elimination of racism and prejudice and the quest to create equal opportunity and equal justice for all.

Milan Kundera, a Czech novelist wrote, "The struggle against power is the struggle of memory against forgetting." My part of this struggle is to to help students and others remember the past in a way most faithful to the evidence and not to critique cover-ups of the past and false myths and stories about our past. I love to remember the figures who contributed significantly to progress in the freedom struggle that is America, and Lincoln is one of the most important of these figures.

Lincoln was no saint, although he was a martyr. He did not believe in social equality between black and white. He considered removing the freed slaves back to Africa. He engaged in acts of martial law, or overriding the Constitution during the Civil War, similar, in ways to what Bush has claimed a right to do during the war against terrorism.

Lincoln helped lead a war against the WMD of institutionalized and legalized slavery, and if had to invade and occupy the South to do it, so be it. It was, in my view, a just war against the evil of slavery. He was reluctant to go to war, but the secession of the South forced his hand in order to preserve the Union.

Los Angeles CA
 
 
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Everyone including you know what I was saying. Your flagrant accusation and innuendo show your true colors.... bait boy....

Saint Louis MO
 
 
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Sweetbutt: Sapp, Maybe we know the truth and deny the propaganda. Honestly have you ever given that notion a serious thought? Maybe, just maybe that since it is a part of OUR history in this area that we may be more inclined to know more of the truth than someone who has never walked our battlefields, read the journals of our families..."

1. My view of the Civil War is not just my view. It is the view shared by the vast consensus of professional American historians. You can find "my" view as the established view in history textbooks, encylopedia entries, and in the best regards works of historical scholarship and in Ken Burns' documentary on the Civil War and Shelby Foote's multivolume history of the Civil War. (Foote is a Southerner).

2. Civil War history is not just "OUR" history with the "OUR" referring to Southerners. Civil War history is American history: it is part of the great freedom struggle in the USA...the struggle to realize the governing American ideals of America.

3. I have visited Civil War battlefields in the South. I have read the journals and diaries of Southerners, including those of Mary Chesnutt. I have read books collecting "pro-slavery" writings and the Confederate pride view of the Civil War. I have read Jefferson Davis on the Civil War and many volumes of the Southern Literary Messenger, one of the most important periodicals of the Civil War. I have read rebuttals of "Uncle Tom's Cabin" done by Southerners, and I have used them in the classroom. You don't know where I've been and what I've read, but that does not stop you from making statements out of ignorance.

4. You ask me why I, as someone living in California, care about the Civil War. California entered the Union as a Free State in 1850 as part of the Great Compromise of 1850. The debate between South and North intensified over the question of whether new states would enter slave or free. Jefferson Davis wanted California to be a slave state. California history can not be taught apart from the politics of the Civil War. Los Angeles, my home town, has been wrought twice in the past 50 years with riots, arising from racial conflict. No Justice, No Peace. The problems related to social justice regarding races in my home town are directly related to the history of slavery and the legacy of segregation and racism in America. There was KKK in Los Angeles. A moviemaker associated with the beginnings of Hollywood did a film--"Birth of a Nation"--that is about the rise of the KKK and the institutionalization of segregation in the South. The KKK was a terrorist, insurgent group. A significant movie celebrated this. Hollywood has given us mythical views of the past. I study the Civil War in myth, film, literature, history, politics.

5. I am a citizen of the USA, and thus I am concerned about American ideals, their betrayal, and studying the way slavery, racism, and segregation--or White Supremacy--has been legitimated and sanctioned in American politics and culture. The Civil War is not just Southern history; it is American history.

6. Maybe you should read some journals of soldiers who died fighting for the North and their families...and read carefully the writings of Lincoln...and the abolitionists....and see how and why the abolitionist movement was a noble, beautiful crusade against an evil--the evil of slavery. Do you deny that slavery is an evil?

7. If George W. Bush had launched a crusade against a tyrannical regime defending slavery with 130,000 troops and at a cost of $700 billion, you Cons would be cheerleading him on, not seeing it as a war of aggression but a war of liberation.

8. Slavery was the real, live, true Weapon of Mass Destruction. Slavery was a weapon of destruction against the lives and human rights of peoples from Africa. Don't you want to see the WMD of 1861 destroyed?

Los Angeles CA
 
 
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Lucky2:

"But I had nothing to do with it and I am a bigot and a racist."

This could be the most honest, revealing thing I've seen you post. Note: These are not my words. The above is a direct quote. If you want to say that you forgot to put "not" in the second clause, I'd say consult with Freud and ask him about Freudian slips.

Los Angeles CA
 
 
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AWE I am gonna miss Sapp......NOT!!!!

Saint Louis MO
 
 
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TOPIC: Imagine if the South had seceded and the Blue States were free of Grey-Red Conservatism