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I changed my mind : Swingers Discussion 752171011
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TOPIC: I changed my mind
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It's still one's judgement as opposed to the judgement of a superior. The disagreement must be adjudicated. That means one is going to be wrong. Just as in civilian life, the disagreement is taken to court. Same for the military such as court martial or lower adjudication of Article 15. And Article 15 werer usually one sided arguments taken up at unit level. I happen to believe that the military person refusing the order is the one who must prove he reasonably believed the order to be unlawful. If any order questioned would have to be addressed before moving on, nothing would get done in combat or in "normal" duties at the home base.

St Petersburg FL
 
 
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debjack, very well put.

Minden NV
 
 
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I don't see this clear line between a lawful and unlawful order. As a veteran of over 7 years Air Force I see that line as blurred. My reasoning is this: A military member believing he has been issued an "unlawful" order and refuses such order has made a judgement call. The Officer or NCO who issued the order obviously believes he/she has issued a "lawful" order. In this case, the order would assumed to be lawful and the military subordinate would have his day in military court or other arbritration (such as the commanding officer). But never the less the order would first be assumed to be lawful and the subordinate receiving such order would have to "prove" in all likelyhood with his attorney that is was in fact "unlawful".

St Petersburg FL
 
 
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sen,

well yes, i thought that was understood (the reasonableness) i remember A Few Good Men and CODE RED!!

Philadelphia PA
 
 
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"u are right i am not and never have been in the military but i can surely state that you don't want your troops making their own determinations of what a lawful order is..." ----------------------------------------------------------- Actually this is a false assumption that is driven by inaccurate movies, TV and plays concerning our military. In Basic Training, all troops are given training on the difference between a lawful and unlawful order. It is an overview and in my opinion does not go into as much detail as it should but that is most likely based on time restraints versus any "conspiracy" to brainwash the troops.

An order must be reasonable i.e., military persons are given examples in ALL basic and some tech schools i.e., MP, SP, Shore Patrol, Combat schools, NCO Prep, NCO Leadership, NCO Academy and Senior NCO Academy of the difference in what is a lawful and unlawful order. In my Basic Training, way back in 1973, and today they have expanded the training in this area, I was given multiple examples of what is a reasonable and therefore lawful order. From there a lawful order is also broken done into meeting the "social, moral and legal" standards of society (the US) and the laws of that society.

That is way the defense of "I was just following orders" has never worked throughout modern military history and conflicts as a legal and justifiable defense.

Minden NV
 
 
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CPL, maybe the people you talked to were as you described. I saw different while serving, most people didn't worry about gays all that much. Most barracks blather centered on women and if someone didn't have a date he might have been called gay, but just to jazz his ass. Real gays kept it as secret as possible because of the times. They also understood the problem, and their desire to serve most often overrode the desire to come out. --------------------------------------- While I was in, they didn't worry about it, but they were against it. There was one guy who was a cook, he was a little guy and kinda on the femine said. He got constantly picked on, because most believed he was gay. He was called every name under sun for a gay. He would have the top of Plastic Milk Bottles(the little cap had the words "HOMO" on it) tacked to his dorm room door.

When I mentioned I that I spoke to Military people about their thoughts on it, I meant in the last two years. I have Family members and friends with Children in the Military. And while they are more open or accepting of gays in General, they don't want them in their military where they have to share so much with them. I think you know what I'm talking about.

Yankton SD
 
 
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Where I am troubled is in the way that the gay and other supporting lobbies view the term "openly".

here here sen, i am with you on that. to me it is no different then wanting to wear a religious symbolic dress instead of the uniform.. that should not be permitted at all

Philadelphia PA
 
 
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CPL4PLAY,

I don't know if I agree with you. In my 21 years it appeared to me that most Commanders on down knew who was and was not gay. I served from 1973 until 1995, during that time I spent 12 years at military bases investigating crime, to include, sexual conduct, with 9 years under the state department umbrella away from everyday military life.

As first a base Law Enforcement cop (Security Police) and then as a Special Agent, I conducted bi-annual training, as well attended numerous schools, throughout my career, that involved "fox hole" simulations and Air Base Ground Defense. The problem with the gay aspect, in my opinion, is not that they cannot serve, but the gay communities terminology of serve "openly". It was my military experience that the majority of NCOs and Officer's could care less about whether someone was gay or not. If they were a good soldier (in the Air Force an Airmen), that was the most important and critical issue.

Under the Uniform Code of Military Justice, "OPENLY" displaying any affection within a formal military environment is considered improper. Only at functions such as military balls, squadron dances etc. where the uniform was still required could heterosexual military members "OPENLY" show affection to their spouses or dates. In other cases flaunting ones sexuality openly, even as a hetro, while at work, or in a formal military setting other then the ones described above, would be considered bad or inappropriate conduct, and in some cases sexual harassment.

I investigated several complaints concerning homosexual conduct. However, they were based on complaints of the subject/accused being openly gay and making an issue out of it. I do believe gays can serve honorably in the military and be accepted for who they are. Where I am troubled is in the way that the gay and other supporting lobbies view the term "openly". Contrary to popular belief, no one in the military can "openly" strut, display or brag about their sexuality, heterosexuals or otherwise. To support the "good order and discipline" it is considered a personal issue and should remain same.

If gays can accept that, then I say lift the written ban on gays, as many already have been serving honorably in the military for decades.

Minden NV
 
 
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as stupid as they come. i have seen a LOT of stupid analogies in these political forums, haha...

maybe maybe you are right but do it now and in 5 or 10 yrs it would be second nature. the same argument were made against blacks way back when.

Philadelphia PA
 
 
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Dzzy wrote Officer - soldiers i order you to treat all other soldiers with respect and honor as if they were your brother or sister putting aside all personal beliefs as to race, creed, sexual orientation, etc.

Soldier - I don't agree with that order i am not following it..

That is not the kind of miliatary i want -------------------------- There is a difference between treating someone with respect and actually respecting that someone. I was in the military and there were officers that I treated with respect(so as not to get in any trouble) that I didn't have an once of respect for. Soldiers aren't robots as some else mentioned earlier. Beliefs are usually learned/inbreaded while growing up, and just cause you are in the military doesn't mean they will change.

If you truely believe that our military would be stronger by forcing it's members to accecpt gays openly, you are truely mistaken. It would make us far weaker.

Yankton SD
 
 
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TOPIC: I changed my mind