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I thought we just got done agreeing that death rates by cars and guns is a false comparison.

Doctors and guns are much better...;-)

Lakeside CA
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We are in substantial agreement on that point.

I have no problem with the ownership of firearms, with reasonable restrictions. And restrictions should generally be up to local jurisdictions.

I actually happen to agree that the country should enforce the current laws, rather than pass any more restrictions.

Lakeside CA
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Doctors kill more people in the united states than guns do to. about 90000 people a year die due to medical malpractice. Maybe we should be outlawing doctors.

Lake Worth FL
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I don't disagree and have even stated as much previously in this thread. The point of contention was when JNM said you can't yell fire in a crowded theater and that is a restriction on free speech, thereby implying that somehow we need more restrictions the RKBA and more gun control. That is an illogical supposition.

There is nothing preventing someone from yelling fire in a crowded theater. In fact, there are instances when that would actually be necessary, such as, if there really WAS a fire in a crowded theater.

The restrictions are essentially that the person shouting fire must be willing to accept the consequences for shouting fire when there really isn't one.

Same applies to the 2nd amendment. If you use a gun for illegal purposes, you are already subject to the consequences.

Requiring a license for using a gun (as you asserted is required for driving a car) would be like requiring a license for people choosing to exercise their first amendment protected right of free speech. It doesn't make sense. It's a right, not a controlled privilege.

Banning firearms is like requiring people to have their mouths stitched shut to ensure they don't yell fire in a crowded theater. Again, doesn't pass the litmus test of logic.

Please tell me TBR, what actions are you concerned about from law abiding gun owners that are not already covered under existing legislation? If they murder someone with a gun, they are already subject to criminal prosecution. If they rob someone at gunpoint or perform some other illegal act with a firearm, they are again subject to criminal prosecution.

There are already sufficient restrictions on the use of firearms, arguably far more than there needs to be, considering that you've already acknowledged that death by firearm is a relatively insignificant occurrence considering your gobbledygook ivory tower mathematical calculations.

Goose Creek SC
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Nice. So you basically agree, as I stated, that the two should not be compared, and yet you compare them.

As to the ammunition, the only stat I could find is by an ammunition manufacturer who state that there was 8-10 billion rounds of small arms ammunition sold in the US in 2002. So 14 billion uses is probably overstating, using your definition of use.

http: // www*policeone*com/police-products/firearms/accessories/ammunition/press-releases/90639/

So, lets get on to your main discussion. I posted before that all of the rights in the Bill of Rights are restricted. None of them are unconditional.

There are restrictions on speech, free assembly, religion, search and seizure, cruel and unusual punishment, and all of the other rights. The only Supreme Court case specifically addressing the Second Amendment came down on the side of regulation.

You may not think they should be there, but they are. Smarter people than you and me and Dan have decided it should be so.

Lakeside CA
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"Nice try, but that was not the original question. Death by firearms is quite small, as is death in a motor vehicle accident."

Actually, the original question that sparked this ancillary discussion of yours was how you liberals can claim that regulating first amendment rights such as shouting fire in a crowded theater is the same as banning firearms in the country. Your little ancillary discussion doesn't even compare to the one I suggested. Yours is like comparing apples to doorknobs. I've already succinctly dismissed this ancillary discussion as irrelevant because driving cars is a privilege. It is not a protected right. The RKBA however is a protected right. Two entirely different things we're talking about here, incomparable, no matter how you skew your mathematics.

"Your proposition is that vehicles cause more death. My contention is that it depends on how you count. Like everything."

Well, your proposition is wrong. There is absolutely no disputing that vehicles cause more deaths. This is a FACT.

What you did was to take this FACT, make a bunch of unprovable assumptions, the calculate out some unfeasible gobbledygook numbers, and claim that you've debunked the FACT that I purported. Places where your logic went awryinclude:

1.) You're comparing a protected RIGHT to an unprotected PRIVILEDGE. 2.) You come up with some "average numbers" about how many trips per day a cars supposedly make without any justification or stating of sources. 3.) You don't define what constitutes a "use" of a firearm. By my definition a use of a firearm would be putting a single round through the device. I know for certain that when I go to range I usually put anywhere from two to several dozen rounds through my guns, each round constituting a use. Some people put literally hundreds of rounds through their guns. How many rounds of ammunition are depleted each day through the millions of guns that exist without incident?

I could go on, but my fingers are getting numb from elucidating on your errant illogic...

Goose Creek SC
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Sweet, where?

Lakeside CA
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I remember not too long ago schools in CA were allowing students to remove the American Flag and replace it with the Mexican Flag.

Spencer TN
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I am telling you it is the inept CA schools...now the inmates(graduates) are running the asylum.

Destin FL
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Always open to improvements in the model.

Lakeside CA
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TOPIC: Guns Guns and More Guns