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That would be a sloth (or sleuth) of black bears. Some people may call it a pack of bears but I don't think that's right. The same is true for brown bears. I forget what they call a group of polar bears though, it's not a sloth.

I call a group of coyotes a pack, the same as I refer to a group of any canines. I believe some people call a group of coyotes a band- but not around here.

I admit I get carried away discussing firearms, but certainly not off topic. I was addressing the fact that you have a rifle similar to one I that own. Also you mentioned the suitability of cartridges and firearms for specific game animals- I addressed that as well.

PA may have have deemed a particular firearm's action as dangerous, but other states and many people don't feel the action is what makes a firearm dangerous. I am of the opinion it is the person squeezing the trigger that is dangerous.

Since car safety was mentioned- on that note- perhaps PA should make it illegal to possess/drive any vehicle that is capable of exceeding the posted speed limits. . Perhaps outlaw any vehicle that travels slower than the flow of traffic. Perhaps outlaw vehicles that can be started/operated by any driver who is intoxicated.

Brought to you by the same logic as outlawing semi automatic firearms- safety. It's the "machine" not the operator- right?

Brooklyn Park MN
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Why would I have to discount the years I had to be with an adult? I was in the woods during hunting season, every minute for the first 2 days of rifle, 2 Saturdays, and at least one day of doe season. Do you think you're only hunting when you pull the trigger? Hunting is so much more than that.

I'm starting to think you're one of those hunters that we call "Kmart Commando"

Pittsburgh PA
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Perfect, If you are going to claim 40 years of hunting experience, you will have to discount the first couple years when you were too young to be in the woods without an adult. Your analogy of governing cars at 70 is also full of holes. We already require by law certain safety equipment on cars such as head lights; tail lights; turn signals; brakes. etc;etc. As a Pa hunter, you cannot use an AR for hunting. Pa Fish and Game has already deemed semi-autos a safety hazard. So your protests seem kind of........??????

Good, you " have seen animals scatter when shot at. Deer, hogs, antelope, bears, coyotes" what?, a heard of bears? a bevy of coyotes?? LOL In spite of your extensive delve into the history and mechanics of certain caliber ammo and rifles your last couple posts are all smoke and off topic. Now you kids play nice now.

Greencastle PA
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bill, I'm going to answer your other questions as best I can.

I can't honestly tell you how many times I've fired more than 3 shots with a high powered rifle at a given time. I can state that I recall 3 times that I wished I had more than the 5 shot capacity of the rifle or shotgun I was using at the time.

Yes, I have seen animals scatter when shot at. Deer, hogs, antelope, bears, coyotes.

Not sure how to answer the bag limits and wounded game question. Are you asking about tracking and retreiving big game, or are you asking my opinions about conservation and wildlife biology?

I haven't seen many hunting programs lately- I don't have cable or satellite anymore. I will say that ever since I saw how they bait deer and shoot them for the camera I'm kind of turned off by a lot of those shows. They don't show you that part. In any event I don't specifically recall any "pros" hunting with AR15 style rifles. A lot of muzzle loaders, single shot and bolt action rifles.

BUT- I do recall a show about several families in back country Alaska. They were subsistence hunting. I thought it odd that a couple of them hunted moose, deer and caribou with AR15s; presumably in .223 Remington. I do not recall how many shots they fired. I thought it sucked that they had to saw the antlers up on the bulls- no trophies allowed- it was strictly meat hunting. No buck deer were taken- not sure if they would have had to destroy the antlers on bucks if they had.

I'm guessing at the caliber- some AR style rifles are available in larger calibers such as .308.

Brooklyn Park MN
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"Frankly I think you are full of shit and just trying to make an argument."

Actually bill, I am not making an argument, I am responding, with my opinion, formulated from my experiences, to things others have posted.

Just so you know...

I pooped today.

Brooklyn Park MN
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bill, My apologies for the long winded response here but this actually is a topic I have some knowledge about...

I own a Remington 760 chambered in .243 Winchester. That round is basically a .308 Winchester necked down to a .243 bullet instead of a .308 bullet yours fire. Both the .243 and the .308 are short action cartridges- shorter than a .30-06 Springfield a 270 Winchester, 7mm magnum, etc.

The .270 Winchester is to the .30-06 Springfield as the .243 Winchester is to the .308 Winchester- a .30 caliber cartridge necked to a .27 and .243 diameter round. The smaller diameter bullet with the same powder load allows a lighter, faster and therefore a flatter shooting round than the .30 caliber rounds. You lose bullet mass and therefore some penetration for use on larger game by going to the smaller caliber. My experience is that is not always the case. But I digress...

The fixed fore end on single shot, a bolt action, or a semi auto rifle allows for a steadier rest in a bipod, tripod, or when shooting from a prone position than does the sliding fore end on the Remington 760/7600 or the other variations of that rifle. The shots taken in open country are typically farther than 200 yards and resting the rifle for a steady shot is important.

Hunters and guides in open country prefer the a bolt or single action over the other actions available for the reasons I stated above. On my third trip to WY, I was laughed at by the locals when they saw the rifle I was using. A pump or semi auto action rifle is better suited to woodland where most shots are off hand and multiple shots are the norm. They reminded me I was not in MN hunting whitetails. However when they learned my rifle was chambered in .243, they lightened up a bit on me- the .243 is well suited to open country hunting for antelope and mule deer. Conversely, I get shit in MN when I use the .243. This is .30-30 and .30-06 country.

A .223 is not in my opinion a good cartridge for goats, deer or the like. It tends to tumble and fragment on impact at certain distances. It makes a mess and I personally don't like to eat lead. Lead poisoning ya understand.

Brooklyn Park MN
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I just find it funny that you expect YOUR preferences to be mandatory for everyone else. I don't want any idiots in the woods. I don't think it really matters what kind of rifle they are carrying. In 40 years of hunting public land in PA I've never had an issue. I attribute that to the hunter safety courses required.

Maybe I think all cars should be limited to 70 mph so a few 'idiots' don't cause crashes. Naaaaaa...... Freedom isn't free.

Pittsburgh PA
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Goodenuff, this is the only thing you have said that makes sense, "It's negligence, not magazine capacity that is the problem. " How many times have you hunted in open or woods have you actually needed more than 2 or 3 shots? I happen to hunt with the Rem 760, I load 3 in the mag and chamber 1. I have never run dry in 40 years. You talk about the "responsible" hunter/shooter and if we all were that guy I would have no problem with hunting with AR rifles. Maybe you are not the problem but someone else will be. Think about the guy in this forum who dropped 3 out of 5 pigs. After 1 shot those pigs were moving, Ever see animals scatter? Not saying that it could not have happened but I am glad I was nowhere around when he started blasting. And what about bag limits and wounded game getting away.? You said the locales would laugh at my pump out west, call me a city slicker? why would that be if I am using an appropriate caliber for the game we are after? How many times on the sports channel have you watched the "pros" and their guests take multiple shots with their AR ? Maybe never? usually if more than one shot is needed they take time to aim the second shot same as they did the first. plenty of time for anyone to cycle a pump. If I was going for Grizzly, or moose, something that needs a heavy load, I would prefer a bolt action. For a goat or lighter animal, maybe a 223 or 243, but It would not need to be an AR. I don't mind if people shoot them at the range or in competition or use them for home security. but I do mind if you bring them into the woods. As you said, some people can cycle a pump almost as fast as an AR, we don't need any more nitwits than we already have. Frankly I think you are full of shit and just trying to make an argument.

Greencastle PA
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"How come anytime a regulation is announced about guns people start screaming about their 2nd amendment?" You may find your answer to that question when you consider the answer to this question:

Why is it that whenever an issue about the negligent use of something occurs, people start screaming about restricting or banning the use of something?

You mentioned losing dogs because of people on adjacent public ground. I know there are laws in PA and NY concerning the issues you mentioned. Do you really think another law will change the behavior of a negligent person who breaks an existing law?

As a responsible landowner, I deal with the issues of adjacent public land on a regular basis. I have never lost a dog. I attribute that to being a responsible dog owner.

Brooklyn Park MN
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bill- No one wants "some cowboy doing a spray and pray, ripping off 10; 20;or 30 rounds into the same woods I may be on the other side of." Since it actually only takes one errant round to injure or kill, it makes little difference whether a negligent shooter fires 5, 10 or 30 times.

There are magazines available for slide action rifles such as the Remington 760/7600, that hold 10 rounds. An experienced shooter can "rip off" those 11 rounds (10 in the mag, 1 in the chamber) as fast as someone using a semi-auto. Also, an experienced shooter using a short action/short throw bolt action rifle can "rip off" rounds almost as fast as someone using a slide/pump action rifle.

If you show up with a pump action rifle "out west", the locals are probably gonna laugh at you as another "city slicker from out east."

It's negligence, not magazine capacity that is the problem.

Brooklyn Park MN
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