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TOPIC: Guns_Guns_and_More_Guns
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39TNCOUPLE, The behavior of some who own and use firearms is a matter of concern to me as regards safety and proper handling. At this time I'm only going to address one part of your post.

I do not recall using the term reckless, and am not going back to find it, but I will respond with this:

HFT has a habit of posting old, untrue things found on the Internet and not explaining that they are not his original thoughts. I was unfamiliar with the story when I originally responded. It turns out it was a fictional story by someone else from several years ago. That said...

IMO anyone who leaves a firearm unattended for a period of time, especially with ammunition in plain sight and in close proximity is irresponsible. I have witnessed first hand the deadly results of firearms left in that manner. IMO, anyone who would defend such an action is irresponsible as well..

I consider myself a responsible firearm owner. I have owned and safely handled them since I was 7 years old, despite some very questionable firearm handling by those who taught me at an early age. I recognize their errors now, and correct them when I observe them handling a gun in an unsafe manner.

I own several firearms of various types. I shoot regularly, and I have shot competitively. I am an active hunter of game of all sizes and types. I have instructed people on the proper use and handling of firearms. I am legally able to carry a concealed weapon in more places than I will ever go. On multiple occasions I have looked down the barrel of a loaded firearm held by a stranger to me while they committed a felony. I have seen first hand the fatal results of a gunshot on living things- including people.

I understand the subject of responsible firearm handling and storage very well.

Brooklyn Park MN
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Sensibly spoken, 39T.

Hockessin DE
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John and Jane-We agree completely!

Goodenuff-I never take exception with argument as long as the math/logic are there-“In god we trust! All others bring data!“ and not points of fear or emotion. You are equally correct that I didn’t go back all 8+ years of this thread to read all of the points-but I read a lot of recent stuff and it seemed to be far off the truth and point. I did try to reference data from the FBI directly and not some other politically biased group and I used the most current data available.

There are a lot of points in this thread that I would consider wrong:

You yourself stated-“anti gun climate”. Go look at every # published, stock reports or even ask your local gun store if gun sales have skyrocketed in the last 7 years. Not sure I understand any references to “anti-gun”. I would argue the gun culture of America is still strong (and growing)-and we have a lot of people to thank for it, but constant talk of gun controls/gun grabs (again all needless fear) are propelling gun sales to new levels.

Gun grabs? Seriously-Do you know or even think the GOVT has any idea of who or how many guns are in circulation? Do you expect people to follow unjust laws that violate their constitutional rights let alone have law enforcement collect the guns of citizens? Both Jefferson and Dr. King suggested openly that we have moral obligation to defy any unjust law and it would be a tragedy to pit good against good in our country.

Background checks have no relationship or connection to the recent gun tragedies. CA was terrorist act as was the event that occurred in Chattanooga, TN last July. I would agree that background checks are a good thing if properly and efficiently executed (even GUN SHOWS) but again you are talking about a government control and the words properly and efficiently rarely tie to the government.

What is a “gun nut”? We use to laugh when people calls us gun nuts…as we equally like music, cars, sex, good wines/beers, traveling and our friends in these circles never title us “nuts” on these interests. General fear or lack of understanding of firearms or anything people don’t fully understand usually causes them to label or assign a negative word to people or activity. We are freely practicing /enjoying an idea of sexual openness in this community-but the vanilla word associates “swingers” or “swapping” as a negative word to this activity. There are people on these forum who don’t even like to be called “swingers” and I would venture a lot of people never pursue the idea out of fear of being labeled a “swinger”. Would you rather be called a gun nut or free gun owner? Swinger or someone that is free sexually?

You have even gone so far as to describe someone as reckless-Read what you wrote to “HAVINGFUN” just 12 days ago. If he has a revolver in his house laying on a table (unloaded) how is that dangerous? I would argue the opposite-I was wondering why it wasn’t loaded? Did he have children around? But then he goes on to say that he left the house, kid showed up to cut the grass (not play with this gun-which he didn’t have access too) but still you labeled him as reckless.

I love a good discussion on sex, guns, religion, politics…all of the points we have falsely been told not to discuss openly. I will never take offense to any good jab or point in humor…I will however discredit your fears and keep any points based on fact.

Chattanooga TN
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I'm not sure why it's even a discussion? Allowing the government to have a monopoly of arms is stupid. Generally it doesn't bode well for individual liberty.

'-That to secure these rights, Governments are instituted among Men, deriving their just powers from the consent of the governed, --That whenever any Form of Government becomes destructive of these ends, it is the Right of the People to alter or to abolish it, and to institute new Government,'

Can't do that without firearms, hence.... 'The right of the people to keep and bear Arms, shall not be infringed.'

It's our liberty insurance, end of story. Hoplophobia is no good reason to erode the basic rights laid out in our founding documents.

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39TN, you're new so just an FYI- everything you have posted has been posted and discussed many times over in here.

I know, it's a daunting task to go back and read all 7,000+ posts.

There have been a number of rebuttals to your posts regarding the statistics- some accurate and some not so accurate. The antis, and the more gun control people also point out the statistics from other nations. For every study/website/report someone can find to support their view, there will be another study/website/report that refutes it.

Just try to not get so upset that you "lose your cool" when someone refutes your argument. If, as a pro gun person, you come across as an emotional "gun nut", your arguments don't get taken seriously.

Have fun, and welcome to the discussion.

Brooklyn Park MN
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oops ... save.

Christoval TX
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Damn Tom.... you make me laugh!!!!

Just same me some room in the fox hole my friend.

Christoval TX
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Hi 5, hand shakes, knuckle bumps, brotherly hugs or what ever Sugars. :-)))))))))) I'm lateraling the ball to "39TN" and letting them run with it for a while. At least they can research, read and comprehend stats and have common sense to boot. WOW, what breath of fresh air. I'm tired of arguing with those who can't/don't/ won't do that here on this thread topic. I'm outta here. See you at the rifle range buddy. Take care my friend/comrade and keep in touch.

Good luck "39TN". You have your work cut out for you. But thank you for your awesome post.

Seguin TX
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@39...... well stated.

Christoval TX
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What seems ironic to me is how people isolate the tools, misuse statistics, or pointless #s in these endless discussions/fear of guns.

Since people like to use # and facts-lets review the following. - fbi.gov/about-us/cjis/ucr/crime-in-the-u.s/2013/crime-in-the-u.s.-2013/offenses-known-to-law-enforcement/expanded-homicide o This is the FBI crime website (which in itself is hard to follow) as it equally distorts #’s-but it will have to do for this discussion. o Make sure you read the other tables as well where they break it down by type of gun/weapons used/sex/etc

In summary there were 12,253 homicides in 2013-a homicide being anytime a human takes the life of another (justified and unjustified). Of these 12K-69% or 8,454 of these homicides occurred with a gun (all types) and 3,798 occurred using fists, hammers, clubs, etc. Dividing further-741 of these 12K are the good guys-cops/citizens doing their jobs and you guessed it.

Read the facts in these #’s: - Good guys used guns 741 times to defend themselves/property or in line of duty. Any # greater than 1 is justification for guns - Bad guys used guns 7713 times during robbery, murders, etc. and just so you don’t think they needed just guns the bad guys killed another 3,798 people with their fists/hammers and clubs (not my words-FBI slide says that) - Bad guys used ~6X more than good guys used guns! - Bad guys used anything other than guns 5X more than good guys did - You can’t outlaw fists, hammers or everything that can be used as weapon - 55.9 percent were killed by someone they knew (acquaintance, neighbor, friend, boyfriend, etc.); 24.9 percent of victims were slain by family members. Can you imagine the level of darkness/hurt/mental illness/depravity that has to occur to force someone to cause harm (let alone-kill) someone-then consider most of the time it is friend or possibly a family member?

It sounds overused but the adage of “GUNS REALLY DON'T KILL PEOPLE-PEOPLE KILL PEOPLE!” appears to hold true (always has) throughout recorded history. Yes-It is a mental health/society issue or simply we have forgotten on how to be human. Instead of going after the tools-maybe we should focus on root causes and quit arguing the political lines (they want to repeat as a control) about guns/magazine sizes and background checks.

If you still love #’s here is another good #=10,076 people lost their lives in DUI’s in 2013. Strangely-you never hear anyone or MADD suggesting we ban cars or liquor. Wait-We did ban liquor once and didn’t that increase the violence? I am assuming MADD understands it is behavioral problem-not a car problem and the same holds true with violence and murder.

OK-We are going back to shooting guns now! Yes we love them (and people too) and were actually shocked that the # of guns was NOT 5 guns to every man/woman in USA. Guns gave you the very freedoms Americans forget about and use constantly...

Chattanooga TN
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TOPIC: Guns Guns and More Guns
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