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"If you can guarantee that the operators would act in a safe and responsible manor, I would have no objection."

I can't guarantee any human behavior.

How would you propose to guarantee that the person holding a Remington 760/7600, or any lever action or bolt action, or semi auto or single shot- in other words ANY firearm would act in a safe and responsible manner?

From a safety standpoint, you with your firearm are just as dangerous as anyone with a semi automatic firearm. Your concern seems to be about the guy with a semi automatic firearm shooting you or another person. If you really want to support your position, and that of PA, prove that in a hunting situation, a semiautomatic firearm negligently discharged has resulted in a statistically relevant higher rate of injuries or deaths to someone (other than the person holding the firearm) than any other type of firearm.

To make it easier, you can include self inflicted injuries or deaths. Those figures are public information for the states I hunt in, I don't know about PA, but assume they are. You are probably in a better position to find those statistics. To pass a law regarding semi auto use in PA, I would think that someone there has those statistics

Brooklyn Park MN
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@ Bill you should know by now that Perfect only picks the part of the post that he thinks he has an answer for. I'm not even gonna debate him on the 2nd because if he was a true believer of the constitution he would know that in it it states elected officials can make laws. So like I said before why don't people that could afford a f-16 fully loaded have one in their front yard since the 2nd is about the right to bear arms? A little common sense goes a long way.

Reston VA
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You said: It's the "machine" not the operator- right? that's exactly right!! If you can guarantee that the operators would act in a safe and responsible manor, I would have no objection. I have said as much since the beginning. I also said the guns should be restricted not out lawed. Safety was the topic I addressed from the beginning, All that chatter about ballistics and action choice just muddied the water. The guy from LA who started this by insisting he needs an AR to mow down pigs is probably reading all this and laughing his ass off. Pittsburg, I am disappointed you have reverted to name calling, Not surprised since I have seen you do this before in other forums. Oh and don't give me that "prove it" shit cause I am not going to waste any more time on this thread as it is

Greencastle PA
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That would be a sloth (or sleuth) of black bears. Some people may call it a pack of bears but I don't think that's right. The same is true for brown bears. I forget what they call a group of polar bears though, it's not a sloth.

I call a group of coyotes a pack, the same as I refer to a group of any canines. I believe some people call a group of coyotes a band- but not around here.

I admit I get carried away discussing firearms, but certainly not off topic. I was addressing the fact that you have a rifle similar to one I that own. Also you mentioned the suitability of cartridges and firearms for specific game animals- I addressed that as well.

PA may have have deemed a particular firearm's action as dangerous, but other states and many people don't feel the action is what makes a firearm dangerous. I am of the opinion it is the person squeezing the trigger that is dangerous.

Since car safety was mentioned- on that note- perhaps PA should make it illegal to possess/drive any vehicle that is capable of exceeding the posted speed limits. . Perhaps outlaw any vehicle that travels slower than the flow of traffic. Perhaps outlaw vehicles that can be started/operated by any driver who is intoxicated.

Brought to you by the same logic as outlawing semi automatic firearms- safety. It's the "machine" not the operator- right?

Brooklyn Park MN
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Why would I have to discount the years I had to be with an adult? I was in the woods during hunting season, every minute for the first 2 days of rifle, 2 Saturdays, and at least one day of doe season. Do you think you're only hunting when you pull the trigger? Hunting is so much more than that.

I'm starting to think you're one of those hunters that we call "Kmart Commando"

Pittsburgh PA
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Perfect, If you are going to claim 40 years of hunting experience, you will have to discount the first couple years when you were too young to be in the woods without an adult. Your analogy of governing cars at 70 is also full of holes. We already require by law certain safety equipment on cars such as head lights; tail lights; turn signals; brakes. etc;etc. As a Pa hunter, you cannot use an AR for hunting. Pa Fish and Game has already deemed semi-autos a safety hazard. So your protests seem kind of........??????

Good, you " have seen animals scatter when shot at. Deer, hogs, antelope, bears, coyotes" what?, a heard of bears? a bevy of coyotes?? LOL In spite of your extensive delve into the history and mechanics of certain caliber ammo and rifles your last couple posts are all smoke and off topic. Now you kids play nice now.

Greencastle PA
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bill, I'm going to answer your other questions as best I can.

I can't honestly tell you how many times I've fired more than 3 shots with a high powered rifle at a given time. I can state that I recall 3 times that I wished I had more than the 5 shot capacity of the rifle or shotgun I was using at the time.

Yes, I have seen animals scatter when shot at. Deer, hogs, antelope, bears, coyotes.

Not sure how to answer the bag limits and wounded game question. Are you asking about tracking and retreiving big game, or are you asking my opinions about conservation and wildlife biology?

I haven't seen many hunting programs lately- I don't have cable or satellite anymore. I will say that ever since I saw how they bait deer and shoot them for the camera I'm kind of turned off by a lot of those shows. They don't show you that part. In any event I don't specifically recall any "pros" hunting with AR15 style rifles. A lot of muzzle loaders, single shot and bolt action rifles.

BUT- I do recall a show about several families in back country Alaska. They were subsistence hunting. I thought it odd that a couple of them hunted moose, deer and caribou with AR15s; presumably in .223 Remington. I do not recall how many shots they fired. I thought it sucked that they had to saw the antlers up on the bulls- no trophies allowed- it was strictly meat hunting. No buck deer were taken- not sure if they would have had to destroy the antlers on bucks if they had.

I'm guessing at the caliber- some AR style rifles are available in larger calibers such as .308.

Brooklyn Park MN
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"Frankly I think you are full of shit and just trying to make an argument."

Actually bill, I am not making an argument, I am responding, with my opinion, formulated from my experiences, to things others have posted.

Just so you know...

I pooped today.

Brooklyn Park MN
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bill, My apologies for the long winded response here but this actually is a topic I have some knowledge about...

I own a Remington 760 chambered in .243 Winchester. That round is basically a .308 Winchester necked down to a .243 bullet instead of a .308 bullet yours fire. Both the .243 and the .308 are short action cartridges- shorter than a .30-06 Springfield a 270 Winchester, 7mm magnum, etc.

The .270 Winchester is to the .30-06 Springfield as the .243 Winchester is to the .308 Winchester- a .30 caliber cartridge necked to a .27 and .243 diameter round. The smaller diameter bullet with the same powder load allows a lighter, faster and therefore a flatter shooting round than the .30 caliber rounds. You lose bullet mass and therefore some penetration for use on larger game by going to the smaller caliber. My experience is that is not always the case. But I digress...

The fixed fore end on single shot, a bolt action, or a semi auto rifle allows for a steadier rest in a bipod, tripod, or when shooting from a prone position than does the sliding fore end on the Remington 760/7600 or the other variations of that rifle. The shots taken in open country are typically farther than 200 yards and resting the rifle for a steady shot is important.

Hunters and guides in open country prefer the a bolt or single action over the other actions available for the reasons I stated above. On my third trip to WY, I was laughed at by the locals when they saw the rifle I was using. A pump or semi auto action rifle is better suited to woodland where most shots are off hand and multiple shots are the norm. They reminded me I was not in MN hunting whitetails. However when they learned my rifle was chambered in .243, they lightened up a bit on me- the .243 is well suited to open country hunting for antelope and mule deer. Conversely, I get shit in MN when I use the .243. This is .30-30 and .30-06 country.

A .223 is not in my opinion a good cartridge for goats, deer or the like. It tends to tumble and fragment on impact at certain distances. It makes a mess and I personally don't like to eat lead. Lead poisoning ya understand.

Brooklyn Park MN
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I just find it funny that you expect YOUR preferences to be mandatory for everyone else. I don't want any idiots in the woods. I don't think it really matters what kind of rifle they are carrying. In 40 years of hunting public land in PA I've never had an issue. I attribute that to the hunter safety courses required.

Maybe I think all cars should be limited to 70 mph so a few 'idiots' don't cause crashes. Naaaaaa...... Freedom isn't free.

Pittsburgh PA
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TOPIC: Guns Guns and More Guns