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TOPIC: Discussion of Islam
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Watch out for another long winded response about taking things out of context again. How we have to look for the reason these thongs happen. How we do not know the these people and how they think.

Miramar FL
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"When the Republic of Ireland gained sovereignty in 1922, relations improved between North and South, although the Irish Republican Army (IRA), outlawed in recent years, continued the struggle to end the partition of Ireland. In 1966–1969, rioting and street fighting between Protestants and Catholics occurred in Londonderry, fomented by extremist nationalist Protestants, who feared the Catholics might attain a local majority, and by Catholics demonstrating for civil rights. These confrontations became known as “the Troubles.”

Never heard of trouble among christians? I think someone needs to go back to school and try to learn something this time. Funny how someone allways uses rhetoric but they codemn the use of it by others? "I find it interesting that to libs, Christianity is evil and Islam is good... " "Be specific and be very careful what you say and be prepared to back up your statements with FACTS.... Rhetoric won't work here.... "

Please be careful of what you say and BE prepared to separate fact from fiction. The Arabic language is complex, and depending on who is translating it can be shown to have many different meanings. IMO The cornerstones of Juddaism, Christianity and Islam are all based upon the same GOD, they teach religous tolerance, they inspire the people of their faith to good unto others. BUT there are those that would use their faith for selfless needs and they are found in all three, and mind you they are in the minority compared to the rest who hold themselves to higher standards.

M

Manville NJ
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So we have two very long winded posts that pretty much says that .38 took those quotes out of context........ YY where is my money?

Miramar FL
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Also here is more accurate definition on Fitnah:

Fitnah: means civil strife, war, riots.

I do not know who translated it into (disbelief [non-Muslims]) but if you research into you may find some truth while looking.

M

Manville NJ
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If we look at the Qur'an again, this time in a slightly different perspective, we see that although the Qur'an clearly mentions that no one can be forced into Islam (nor forcibly kept a Muslim), it makes the direct addressees of the Prophet (pbuh) an exception. The Qur'an tells us that Mohammad (pbuh) was not only a Prophet (Nabi) but was also a Messenger (Rasu'l) of God. The Qur'an tells us that when God sends His messenger in a people, these people are not allowed to live on God's earth if they reject the messenger; It tells us that these people are given time in which to make up their minds and to present all their objections against the messenger (Rasu'l); It tells us that when the All-knowing God decides that these people have been given adequate time and that they are now absolutely clear about the truthfulness of the messenger and thus are not left with any excuse for their rejection, yet are still persistent in their rejection, then God directs His messenger to migrate from the area and then He destroys all those who have rejected His messenger. The Qur'an refers to the peoples (nations) of the messengers of old - Nuh, Hud, Lut, Sho`aib, Saaleh, Musaa (pbut) - and narrates the result of their rejection. It declares to the direct addressees of Mohammad (pbuh) that if they do not accept the message of God's messenger (Mohammad) their fate shall be no different from those nations that have gone before them (See Surah Al-Qamar, the whole Surah especially verse 43 - 45). In short, the Qur'an says that it is the unalterable law of God that when He sends His messenger in a people, these particular people are left with no option, but to accept His message or to face the punishment of death and sometimes complete annihilation. The Qur'an goes further to tell us how this punishment was implemented on the polytheists from among the direct addressees of the Prophet (pbuh). It tells us that although the previous nations of the messengers of God were annihilated, because of their rejection, through (apparently) natural calamities, the believers of Mohammad (pbuh), because God has given them rule in a land (Medinah), shall fight the rejecters and through these believers shall God implement His punishment (Al-Taubah 9: 14 - 16). It directs them that the Mushrikeen should be killed, without any exception. They should only be allowed to live if they accept Islam (Al-Taubah 9: 5). On the other hand, it also directs them that the Jews and the Christians (because they were not polytheists - i.e. Mushrik), even if they do not enter the folds of Islam, they may be allowed to live if they accept to live under the Muslim rule and agree to pay the Jizyah (Al-Taubah 9: 29). Thus, the Prophet (pbuh) sent his messenger, who declared at the time of Hajj that no one from amongst the rejecting polytheists shall be allowed to live after the prohibited months, if he does not accept Islam. As a result of this declaration, most of the people of Banu Ishmael, who previously were polytheists, accepted Islam and thus the all-encompassing punishment of God was avoided.

M

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“So when the sacred months have passed away, then slay the idolaters wherever you find them, and take them captives and besiege them and lie in wait for them in every ambush, then if they repent and keep up prayer and pay the poor-rate, leave their way free to them; surely Allah is Forgiving, Merciful” QURAN Surah IX, 5

As you should be aware of the fact that the basis of the opinion regarding the death penalty of an apostate is not any verse of the Qur'an , but a saying ascribed to the Prophet (pbuh), as reported by Bukhari, in his "Kitaab al-Jihaad wal-Siyar", "Kitaab istitabah al-Murtaddeen" and "Kitaab al-ai`tisaam bil-Kitaab wal-Sunnah", in which the Prophet (pbuh) is reported to have said: “Whoever changes his Religion, kill him. “ Obviously, if the matter had ended here, I would probably have had no objection in submitting that the Prophet (pbuh) has fixed the punishment for ALL apostates to be death. Nevertheless, the matter does not end here. We know that the Qur'an has referred to the issue of apostasy at more than one place (for example see Al-Baqarah 2: 217, Al-Baqarah 2: 108, Aal Imraan 3: 90, Al-Nisaa 4: 137 and Al-Nahl 16: 106). But at none of these instances does the Qur'an mention the punishment of death for such people, who change their religion. The Qur'an does mention that such people shall face a terrible punishment in the hereafter, but no worldly punishment is mentioned at any of these instances in the Qur'an . This situation obviously raises a question mark in the mind of the reader that if Allah had wanted to give the punishment of an apostate a permanent position in the Shari`ah, the punishment should have been mentioned, at least at one of the above mentioned places. If the Qur'an was devoid of any reference to apostates, the matter would have been different. The strange thing is that the Qur'an mentions apostasy, and still does not mention the punishment (if any) it wants the apostate to be subjected to. Moreover, the Qur'an clearly mentions in Al-Baqarah 2: 256 that: “There is absolutely no compulsion in religion “ While if the referred directive (regarding the apostate) ascribed to Prophet (pbuh) is taken to be general and not specific for a particular people, the Qur'anic statement: "There is absolutely no compulsion in religion" would lose all its meaning. If a person is to be killed in case he converts to another religion, it would imply that the statement of the Qur'an only means that a person cannot be forced to accept Islam, but he CAN be forced to remain a Muslim throughout his life. It is quite obvious that such is not the case. Furthermore, the Qur'an has strictly disallowed the imposition of the death penalty except in two specific cases. One of them is where the person is guilty of murdering another person and the other is where a person is guilty of creating unrest in the land (fasaad fi al-ardh) like being involved in activities that create unrest in a community, for example activities like terrorism etc. The Qur'an says: “Whoever kills a person without his being guilty of murder or of creating unrest in the land, is as though he kills the whole of mankind. “(Al-Maaidah 5: 32) Obviously, apostasy can neither be termed as "murder" nor "creating unrest in the land". Thus, in view of the above facts, we are left only with one option. We can only say that either the saying has been wrongly ascribed to the Prophet (pbuh), as it is clearly contradictory to the Qur'an and the Prophet (pbuh) could not have said anything contradictory to the Qur'an , or that the saying ascribed to the Prophet (pbuh) relates not to all apostates, but to a particular and specific people.

Manville NJ
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"was simply going to pull quotes of similar themes from The Bible, seeing as how BOTH books have a common derivative. "....Yeah YY but those days for christianity are long gone...We live in the 21 century now.

Miramar FL
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I dont about any of you but this shit is pretty fuckin scarey. better check my ammo and make sure it is dry and stacked high. Qur'an:9:5 "Fight and kill the disbelievers wherever you find them, take them captive, harass them, lie in wait and ambush them using every stratagem of war."

Ishaq:325 "Muslims, fight in Allah's Cause. Stand firm and you will prosper. Help the Prophet, obey him, give him your allegiance, and your religion will be victorious

Qur'an:8:39 "Fight them until all opposition ends and all submit to Allah."

Qur'an:8:39 "So fight them until there is no more Fitnah (disbelief [non-Muslims]) and all submit to the religion of Allah alone (in the whole world)."

Ishaq:324 "He said, ‘Fight them so that there is no more rebellion, and religion, all of it, is for Allah only. Allah must have no rivals.'"

Ishaq:587 "Our onslaught will not be a weak faltering affair. We shall fight as long as we live. We will fight until you turn to Islam, humbly seeking refuge. We will fight not caring whom we meet. We will fight whether we destroy ancient holdings or newly gotten gains. We have mutilated every opponent. We have driven them violently before us at the command of Allah and Islam. We will fight until our religion is established. And we will plunder them, for they must suffer disgrace."

Imperial MO
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Thank you guys..... thank you

Miramar FL
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You see JNM...I don't have to lie...unlike you....You are so pathetic, just so pathetic it is almost pitiful.

Miramar FL
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TOPIC: Discussion of Islam