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TOPIC: The real problem
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Glen ; not sure why the antagonistic attitude is from , if you had a disagreement with someone at one point why does it matter that it be brought up in a totally different topic? I do not agree with everyones opinion on many matters and although some may come across as crass or rude or however one may percieve, why take it personally and ruin another thread with such small minded comments. cant people have an opinion and leave it at that whether you agree or not or like them or not?

now back on topic my real problem with the idea of a bailout is that history will repeat itself , and we will get deeper and deeper in trouble , and those who have already done so will make the same mistakes only different and again cry about what happened to them. and it all goes bak to my original point that there are too many who are living to keep up with or ahead of the Jones's instead of living within their means..... and on another point it matters not how much one earns a year in the forums especially since well anyone can say they earn any amount they want to claim..........even in real life it is real easy to live like the rich, many have had it down for the past few years...... too bad they are the same ones right now crying about how they got screwed by the mortgage companies, or about how those who flip properties artificially inflate the prices..... things that make me go hmmmmmmmmmmm

Burlingham NY
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"Or maybe those who are or were fiscally repsponsible, who didn't overextend themselves, should pay for those who did now that is a novel Idea....

Isn't that what they are trying to do now? "

Correct. Yet again we have the people that have done the right thing, being forced to pay for those that did the wrong thing.

Bailout = yes. But make the payout be to Main Street, not Wall Street. and proportionate to income, NOT how stupid you were.

Glendale AZ
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"You really didn't need to tell us about your financial situation"

If a simple minded person is going to make incorrect assumptions in regards to my financial situation, I will take the time needed to correct said simple minded person.

You are not smart enough to comprehend someone as intelligent and informed as me. Therefore, you use the small bits and pieces of my complex arguments that you do understand, to try to categorize me.

I say Bush is a bungling idiot... Oh, I must be a Liberal. Wrong.

I complain about how flippers, speculators, the Fed, government, Wall Street and many others created a debt and housing bubble that has lead us to the edge of financial ruin... Oh, I must be in a economic hardship.

Your simple mind just can't comprehend someone intelligent enough, informed enough, and concerned enough of anything beyond themselves, to have developed knowledge as deep as mine.

"Delusions of grandeur is also a problem that you must work on."

It is not a delusion. Compared to you, I'm a mental giant.

Your problem is that you don't have the intelligence to understand complex situations, so you simplify, generalize, and cling to your beliefs despite arguments to the contrary. You are easily confused, so once you make up your mind, you simply refuse to be confused by the facts.

When we were talking safe sex, you showed you could not comprehend something as simple as cost/benefit or evaluating relative risks.... It is just too complex for you. The most complex thought you could muster was: "condom".

When we were discussing women who squirt, you could muster no thought more complex than "It's piss".

When talking economics, you can not manage a thought more complex than "Deadbeats".

And, you can't even see that W is a bungling fool that, independent of ideology, has mismanaged every aspect of his administration.

Unfortunately, there is nothing you can do about your problem. You can't fix stupid.

Glendale AZ
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Or maybe those who are or were fiscally repsponsible, who didn't overextend themselves, should pay for those who did now that is a novel Idea....

Isn't that what they are trying to do now?

Burlingham NY
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"it isnt a monopoly game ..... "

During 2003-2006, it WAS a monopoly game.

Glendale AZ
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"Glen speaks as a typical liberal, blaming others for the hardship that he's experiencing."

1) I'm no Liberal. I'm a fiscal conservative, wanting smaller government, lower taxes, and balanced budgets. I hate Democrats and Republicans eqully, and am closest to Libertarian, which is as fiscally conservative as it gets.

Perhaps you missed my comment that I think George H W Bush was one of the best presidents ever. Sure, he agreed to a few tax increases, but in exchange for large spending cuts that stopped the growth of deficits in its tracks, and lead to the boom of the 90s that Clinton ps wrongly creditied with by many. Too bad his son is the exact opposite of him... bungling fool. Blew the lid off spending while pushing debt as the save all, and has lead us to the edge of finaicial collapse.

2) I'm experiencing no hardships. My wife and I both have very safe jobs and out combined household income is almost 3x the national medain of $48K. Our total debt is 2x annual income including $180K on a 15 year mortgage at 4.75% and $60K in student loan at under 4% that my wife aquired while getting her Master's a few years ago... which in turn resulted in a $20K a year raise.

Your problem is that you are a simple minded person that likes simple minded answers. Your one of those that chooses to not be confused by facts, once your mind is made up.

I'm not a simple person. I'm deep, complex, very well informed, completely independant thinked that shrugs off ALL mythology and dogma and seeks the root truth.

And the root truth is that flippers were a significant facotr driving demand and pushing up prices. The fed the specualtive price bubble that was doomed to collapse. And as such, bare a portion of the blame for the financial disaster rocking the country's economy.

When you want to blame someone for this disaster, look in the mirror.

Glendale AZ
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I concur, I suppose many do not realise what type of investment ( real capital) is needed to purchase maybe they think those wo do this just wave a magic wand and they are beqeathed ( sp) the funds to do so....... forget the thought of saving up for such endeavors.......

it isnt a monopoly game .....

Burlingham NY
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I beg to differ when you claim most who invested in tech sticks did so with thier own money I know many who borrowed in order to invest because it was thought to be a quick way to roll some cash.

and as far as your claim to flippers artificially raising the housing prices, that is not what totally drove up housing markets all over the country. what drove up many prices in such areas . is the fact many people are driven to move ahead, and such many choose or chose to move out of city areas to the suburbs , thus causing a demand , that coupled with the fact those comming rom city envioroment were willing to spend more for housing as the cost was lower than what was being paid prior .now that starts to drive up prices, then as demand grows so does the price . te only thing false about the increase is when those who really didnt take into effect the actual cost ( add in comute alone )thise many then decide that since the price increases are real based on demand then re finance seems like the easiest alternative , thus the ortex of doom to te economy begins ( now this may not be true to all areas but it is what happened in our area)

the investor had stopped buying long before the prices started to make the big jumps because it was NOT prudent when the upswing starts. the investor hurt by th mortgage crisis was more than likely some one who had not the money to actualy gamble with.and most likely did so based on some paid program or internet get rich quick scheme like " buy forclosed homes cheap"

now watch as the " flippers " do their magic again as the market descends. that with the new tighter stanards...... like the 35-50% on needed already to invest on such things.........I forgot to mention the tighter lending standards for investers than those of first home buyer already .

in actuality the "flipper" has/ had more at risk and really more to lose

Burlingham NY
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"dont hate those who have the ability to invest in tangible items the real estate market will come back thre is no doubt about it. "

House prices increase 80% in a few years while wages were up 10%. We went from a house being 3x income to over 5. Unless we start seeing some real wage increases, it could take 50 years for prices to return to peak levels.

And yes, idiots that were buying tech stocks, as well as those bringing crap companies to the market, were significantly to blame for the tech wreck. Back in 1998-2000, I was telling everyone to stop.... no one listened then either.

Flipers do share part of the blame. They created false demand, false demand lead to rapidly rising prices. Now, as all Ponzi's do, the specualtive bublle is imploding.

The main difference between the tech wreck and housing implosion, is that most people buying tech stocks were doing so with their savings. People buying houses were doing so with debt. As the housing market continues to implode (we're only half done on a national level, wil a major commercial implosion just getting started), the defaulting debt will destroy the economy.

I'm not putting all the blame on flippers. This problem is so huge there is plenty of blame to go around. Government, the Fed, bankers and brokers, Realtors, appraisers, originators, fools buying the MBSs and CDOs, fraudsters,l people beleiving the lies of all of the above...

And yes, a share of balme for flippers.

Glendale AZ
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Poly : it is all your fault that many need to keep up appearances be it for status, or to impress . It is too damn hard , too damn long to work for, too damn long to save for what you may have earned. The easiest way to get such things is to borrow borrow borrow . Then if you get over your head some idiot will end up paying the bill when it is all over.

Burlingham NY
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TOPIC: The real problem